What does InvestigativeMEDIA mean to Joy A. Collura? Why did she first venture to IM Chapter One? P2
What does InvestigativeMEDIA mean to Joy A. Collura? Why did she first venture to IM Chapter One? Part Two
I ran out of room on the last post.
Next we will CTRL F in search put JOY A COLLURA on the article:
48 hits for JOY A COLLURA.
what is interesting about this video - it was the way I wanted to go out June 30, 2013 except when the video ends curving to the Helms- I wanted to go straight to the car - the old burro trail that leads out to McCrary's place
I will Google Earth it for you the way I wanted to go out June 30, 2013 due to extreme heat but both Sonny and Dr Ted Putnam stated that would have been a worse "funneling" like a chimney (too narrow) and so I never talked about it much after they both said that on a hike.
here is the way I wanted to go from when I was sitting above the Helms on the two track ridge which is near what is now called the Observation Deck of the GMHS Memorial Trail:
5, 6, & 7. These comments were made with us both at the Yarnell Library sitting there typing together.
As you can see, this video above is no longer and I do not know what video was here.
We were out on Black Friday—not my normal style—we were looking for game trail deals and such. When we were sitting in traffic waiting than waiting in long lines almost like when one visits an amusement park ride line; dragged out long lines everywhere. Than I thought how Thanksgiving went- waiting for the yummy food to be done and gathering around with loved ones waiting to eat that traditional meal. With Christmas ahead and the waiting to open a gift—all this “waiting” reminded me of things outside the Holiday traditions and that is waiting for someone’s next interview where they say “you remember that report for Yarnell Hill Fire we put out and I kept sticking up for it—-I am now ready to share and admit it was due to my professional position that I stated that publicly a lot—I felt if you all heard it again from me you would believe it or maybe I would start believing it if I kept saying it. I know you all waited in silence as the world rushed by waiting for me to say here I am—I am now ready to go beyond my profession…beyond my position…and give you the details that lacked in the report because I know every bit of information is needed in hopes to never have this happen again. I had experts work on this report so I felt it was done sufficient. Yet I will tell you now I really could not sleep at night with ease knowing nineteen men died and I had more information to share to the report but I had to figure out how to piece the report together to avoid ligations and such.” (maybe see this interview will come out this Holiday Season or I was dreaming myself or I was doing one of those “what if” moments I see on this comment area to guess what happened and how a man sleeps at night.) EVERYONE- We hope you have a warm and loving Holiday Season—maybe this Holiday Season will bring much grace and blessings that we see publicly more details unfold to this tragic weekend where nineteen men died and a community that was affected by it. We toast our glasses to you all— “Salute- may the truth prevail…may one who walks with integrity keep honoring God and may He guide your path with a clear direction.”
Joy A Collura and Tex (Sonny) Harold Eldon Gilligan says
Buford of Yarnell states the man Jim next to Helm’s saw Brendan drive out and that is not off the Shrine area but over near Sesame area—he stated the look Brendan had is worth you all reaching Jim to go over his testimony of that moment. [emphasis added]
28, 29, & 30. https://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state/#comment-4342
Now that I covered in Chapter One all areas tied to my name ( JOY A COLLURA / JOY COLLURA ) - time to take the time out to snippet any areas I feel should be "remembered" in case InvestigativeMEDIA every had any moment of "pause" - we have these posts of me, the Yarnell Hill Fire Eyewitness, went back to check all links and share what ones that are now gone- what was it if I know ...
https://youtu.be/kSQdVAAIlYI America Burning: The Yarnell Hill Tragedy
November 3, 2021 1:47pm: I want to continue to state for the record that John Dougherty's website may it use to have a "donation" page to keep it flowing and going has never been made to make a profit like you seen other media and authors ... and it will be nine years come next June 30, 2013 and he kept the site up which have important takeaways not found anywhere else except a few inserts in some "made-for-profit" books on YHF. I donated financially over time to help keep the site going.
I want to say a "special" thank you to John Dougherty for "staying with it" all these years even if you ventured off to other professional areas you still gave the World a "free" place to share and care on your site.
Wants To Know The Truth is one of the top assets and "take-aways" for me from the first Chapter on IM yet so are Gary L. Olson, Robert Powers, Robert The Second - Fred J Schoeffler, Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny) (Charlie), Rocksteady, The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive, Mike, J. Stout, NV, JTW, WFF, Nick Sundt, Fyrestorm, Rod Wrench, Christina Nealson, Calvin, Yavapai County Resident as well as those who participated who I am left puzzled about all these years later: Dave, Elizabeth Nowicki, Barbara Warren
It is not free to have these sites running all these years even Fred J Schoeffler when he does the blog knows just that. He knows the only way to get me to participate was to come to an unagreeable agreeable agreement. It exists as odd as it sounds yet the Buster Benson book has helped us for the most part.
The Yarnell Hill Fire Revelations was born Summer 2018. Yet my blog contributors does not always have full access because of limitations set by me. I feel after all the hours I invested in it, I really am uncomfortable with anyone outside just me able to access the site because I end up fixing the glitches most of the times when I allow another on here. One time (Sept 2019) we hired Cody to fix glitches and he is building the "10 & 18" site currently. Fred tries to assist when able those glitches.
We all have our roles in the aftermath of the YHF but none of us tied to John Dougherty's InvestigativeMEDIA (IM) long term participants were there to make a profit or agendas except there was some short term folks there that were questionable and we all know that IM's participants-Holly Neill and her friend Fire 20+ Deanna Thompson have been tied to helping out in a research style yet still Holly has a tie to a "made for profit" book with John N MacLean.
In order, on all of IM who were the firsts on all articles collectively:
Fred J. Schoeffler was the first on July 30, 2013. I, Joy A Collura, was eighth on November 18, 2013.
My takeaways I want to remember from Chapter One from each participant of this chapter:
In chronological order of who first began on Chapter One-
Article made October 17, 2013:
First Few Days - Who were the first dozen t o Post:
1. Barbara Warren (The Chapter Coordinator of https://arizona.psr.org/- MD, MPH email: email@example.com )
NV, no one knew about Chief Koile until after the fire and all that history.
3. Robert (Bob) Powers (still a semi active person to IM- I believe his last public comment was May 2019 on IM but occasionally keeps in touch with IM participants back channel - he was a former USFS Oak Grove Hot Shot Foreman who lost his Father in the July 1953 Rattlesnake Fire (CA). His first comment was on IM September 2, 2013 posted on the Ten Standard Fire Orders.)
Update: Date: Monday, November 8th, 2021 at 7:12 PM
Robert (Bob) Powers came to IM because of the loss of 19 Fire Fighters who were Hot Shots. He wanted to learn more about the disaster. Mr. Powers did not know about the site until the day he got on it - internet search for the Yarnell Fire.
He does occasionally check in to see any new posts - appx. every month. There were a lot of good people that put a lot of info into the Blog he said. Research and some great pictures were presented. He was able to get in touch with an old friend and he met some new ones.
Robert (Bob) Powers grew up in the Forest Service from the time he was five ( 5 ) years old -
New Mexico in 1949 to Calif. that same year Greenville Plumas NF, to the Mendocino NF.
1953 his Dad was killed. He went back to Oklahoma and then back to California.
Sequoia NF Pinehurst RS 1954 to 1961.
To Springville Calif. Sequoia NF Worked the summer at age 17 for CDF Engine Crew.
1962 and 1963 Summer for Kernville Sequoia NF FF.
1964 started his career as a Fire prevention Tech. GS4 Fulltime Kernville.
May 1965 Engine Foreman GS 5 Kernville Transferred to the Angeles NF Arroyo Seco Dist.
May 1967 Fire Prevention to 1972 Oak Grove Hot Shots.
1974- Six Rivers- River Dist. as a Asst. Dist. FMO GS 7, to The Supervisors office as the Asst. Disp. GS7. Transferred to the Sawtooth NF R4 GS 9 Supervisory Dispatcher/ Asst. Forest FMO
1976. Retired there after a great career in 1994/ Type 2 Fire Boss, Type 2 Line boss and Air attack, Crew boss, Sector Boss and Division Boss Firing Boss on his way up the Ladder.
Robert (Bob) Powers trained Hundreds of FFs on the 10 and 13-18.
Robert (Bob) Powers was never trapped, burned over or deployed a Fire shelter in all those years.
Yes, he went on fires during his positions in the Supervisors office, Line assignments and Air Attack. That's his Bio With a lot not said in between.
Fire Fighting is a Hazardous Job. Fire Fighters and Civilians alike are affected in many ways to hazards--Smoke, chemicals and flame. Safety Rules kept him and 1000s of others safe.
4. Nick Sundt ( U.S. Forest Service Seasonal Firefighter (unknown years and unknown Crew but online states:) Hotshot, Helitack, Smokejumper, Government Accountability Project Senior Fellow, World Wildlife Fund Director, Climate Change Science and Policy Integration, World Wildlife Fund Communications Director for Climate Change, U.S. Global Change Research Program Communications Director, University Maryland Center for Global Change (College Park, MD0; & Pacific Institute (Oakland, CA)d Editor, Global Change, Global Change Editor, Cutter Information Corp Editor of newsletter: "Energy, Economics and Climate Change", Congressional Office of Technology Assessment Analyst, Attendance Dates - Jan 1, 1977 - Dec 31, 1980 Qualification Type Master of Arts (M.A.), Energy and Resources-University of California, Berkeley, Attendance Dates - Jan 1, 1972 - Dec 31, 1980 - Qualification Type Bachelor of Science (BS), Conservation and Resource Studies- University of California, Berkeley, Attendance Dates -Jan 1, 1970 - Dec 31, 1972 -Qualification Type High school diploma -Frankfurt American High School (Germany) - from Washington Dc, District Of Columbia )
6. Elizabeth - this comment does not identify at this point if this is E. Nowicki just "Elizabeth"
7. J. Stout
I am sorry this was never directly answered by anyone. I hope since, you got your answer. I can state in all my public records I still have not come across any documents to show you the answer and I own the entire profile on Eric Shane Marsh.
10. Rod Wrench ( a former member of the Del Rosa Hotshots and superintendent of the Little Tujunga Hotshots, both from California )
"When 19 fatalities occur, and it doesn’t matter where or when, someone needs to be held responsible, you don’t sweep it under the rug." [emphasis added]
Joy A Collura says "Amen"
Joy A. Collura's Takeaways that should be remembered from Chapter One:
From the article parts that says "Andersen says the lack of urgency to put out the fire caused him to wonder whether the state was content to let it burn through the dense chaparral that choked the gaps between massive granite boulders strewn across the Weaver Mountains that flank Yarnell to the west. The east slope of the mountains hadn’t experienced a wildfire since 1966."
***I would "fact check" the "1966" because in all my Public Records Request (PRR) the history has not been shown in documents but locals accounts have ranged from 1965- 1969. I asked Stephen Pyne and many Fire agencies. Turned zero results.
***I interviewed fully Chief Pete Andersen (RiP) over time and one day when I come across that paper- I will share it but he felt Bruce Olsen/ Olson, Russ Shumate, and Phil Bruglio still have more to state of the realities of the YHF 2013. I will only share when I get the documents because the data he shared is everything crucial. John N. MacLean would find his account crucial for his book - I know that much. What I always found interesting in our talks with Pete- very revealing - was J J Coil. I never knew it was the same man I would be standing behind in NC at a Fire Conference. It was the most eery moment. I was writing data down. For the first time, the information shown to me concerned me. I was always this fun gal then at that event my life shifted to serious on so many levels. I had not a person to tell what I learned. I tried two times to two folks but they seemed not ready for that. When I come across the document I will finally show the world.
***I want to make sure people know ... I knew Chief Pete since 2005 --- he went to a church I attended. I miss him dearly. Him and his wife were my Prayer Warriors. I wish I could share more yet he is one of those folks I keep close in my immediate area only.
He was a huge part of my YHF 2013 Red Cross Prescott Arizona June 30, 2013 evening and that week in our evacuation moment at the college. I miss him. I am so sorry he died. (tears flowing).
I guess the tears are because this YHF 2013 divided Pete with some long time Firefighter friends for telling the truth. How do you --- and you all know who you are --- how do you sleep at night? Are you heavily into substance? how can one care so little?
Did you all ever see how your once friend ended up dying? His health ups and downs?
It was one of the hardest visits I had. I brought Dr Ted Putnam, Fred J Schoeffler, Norb Szczurek ( retired- North Lake Tahoe Fire Protection District), Keegan Schafer (Fuels Management Officer at Tahoe Regional Planning Agency based in South Lake Tahoe, California.) to meet Chief Pete and I remember sitting there in a somber state of mind ... very mindful ... and I asked Fred in front of everyone after Pete stated he was in remission and he showed us all the external tumor photos he had and the weight loss he endured.
I said to Fred please pray for him right now. Ask all your questions
to Chief Pete right now ... I said to them and I am so sorry for the words I spoke during that visit because it ended up happening. I explained what I saw. I won't share it here but there are folks who know who got to see it too.
He died shortly after that visit.
I weep so bad because no-one cares enough that was there those last 18 minutes to "Speak Up" - it is heart wrenching as I watch some of you advance in the fire industry taking raises, vacations, accolades, blending in making an income and when I get near to crucial data - it seems you all are one step ahead then retiring out of the system or tapping that other one on the shoulder and telling that person that Monday moment with Joy- don't go - think of your career - your family. That person was going to share one of the biggest concerns never even aired to the world but I know - they know ... why can't the world know, right? If I say or show what I know just on that person - I know this much --- someone tied to that person is dead today and so there are those factors that lay there. I do my best to weigh it all out. It is not easy.
Lately, I have a semi-difficult person who is too focused to his own area there in CA and his stuff but trying to get me interested in that area when I am in "self-care" mode and I am already tight on time with much stuff outside myself ???
I will not take on new areas that involve bringing people down on lies - just won't happen - he is lashing out my way and as well to my dear friends unnecessarily mis-speaking (none of the people I know asked for him to reach them- leave them alone - blows me away that one of my contributing authors said he talked to him recently too ??? - why ??? I think the man needs someone to talk to that can help him with all his concerns - it ain't me. And he shouldn't be involving my immediate folks. I cut out when he made his comment on the people I live with - that was down right rude )
... but I want him to know when I made that 9-22-21 video thinking how much more time do I have --- what do I need to be placed out ??? ---- what I know is for sure ... way overwhelming ...
and God placed it on my heart to begin with sharing InvestigativeMedia and its chapters this Holiday season versus what I was planning on doing ... We miss you Chief Pete.
Everyone who knows me, knows ... I was headed to CA for those courses and times until you, sir, mixed unhealthy non-realities my way. My energy is solely married to fire and getting the documents out.
It is crucial we all do this yet I am okay if I soar alone or with just a few. I am doing the difficult right thing.
Monday, November 8th, 2021 at 2:42 PM, some tied to IM stand by their statement recently made to me in quotes below and I am floored egos exist to say such stuff but they do --- why they waste the time to write it - ???? - One IM person stated it and another backed the statement up--- yet I fully disagree and so does my immediate folks who have known me for decades who have seen the enormous amount of creativity, intelligence, drive, ability all along and by the way nothing in life falls in the category "too late" in my way of thinking --- just sayin' ... IM person stated to me: "You have an enormous amount of creativity, intelligence, drive, ability etc. it’s just too fuckin’ bad that you never found anything to apply your talent to until it was to late." [italics added]
Pete in the article said: "“I think it’s a big cover-up, a big snow job,” he says. “It tries to take any semblance of blame off anybody.” [emphasis added]
What people in the world do not realize this man was a truth teller. I took his truths and I pulled the records. In God's time, it will unfold ...
I also want to remember from IM Chapter One:
Expert Doug Campbell (RiP) says, “They knew the rules were against them when they were going downhill in the green.” [emphasis added]
The article stated:
"When the investigation team, headed by Florida State Forester Jim Karels, released its report to the public three weeks ago, the 116-page document’s astonishing conclusion was that everybody involved in the Yarnell Hill Fire did everything right — despite the incineration of the 19 hotshots by flames so hellish that granite boulders fractured."
When I became a part of the International Fire Industry, God led me to a signed confidential contract but I do know how the YHF 2013 Investigation Team was created and why by a first hand person who is historically on my record as a mentor to my fire path. That was an unusual shocking moment time for me. I wonder if it was shocking for him too. Or planned? I had bunch of names to choose from and I picked a few but God led him to me. I know more than I speak. That's for sure. Yet I will always ponder if that moment was to help me put all the pieces together on the beginnings of the Investigation Team. or what?
The article stated:
“The judgments and decisions of the incident management organizations managing this fire were reasonable,” the report states. “Firefighters performed within their scope of duty, as defined by their respective organizations. The Team found no indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol.” [emphasis added]
Well, if you read IM, one thing is for sure we learn the "10 & 18" so once you learn that ... how can the professional SAIT - SAIR Team even think this statements above can be found to be facts or truths after one reads the "10 and 18"?
I really want the actual image from the article and then copy/paste and highlight areas after image that I want to be remembered.
This is a copy and paste from above image down below with me adding my flair and opinions as I read it.
"The report concludes that, because of a lack of communication [ my add in: isn't that one of the 10 and 18 Fire Orders and Watch out Situations? Isn't that breaking the policies and protocols? ] between the Granite Mountain crew and fire managers and other firefighters in the 30 minutes leading up to the hotshots’ entrapment, it’s impossible to determine why the crew decided to leave the safe burned-over area and descend into the chaparral-choked box canyon — an action that violated numerous firefighting safety protocols.
“We cannot fully know how they made their decisions prior to their entrapment and fire shelter deployment,” the report states. “No crewmembers from the deployment site survived to tell why the crew took the actions they took.”
"The state Forestry Division’s Roy Hall [ my add in: Mr. Hall is this the same man who has been on tragedy / near miss fires, right? What about the Butte Fire- weren't you the fill in Sup. for Flagstaff on that fire. Right? Funny you would be the one to publicly state "no smoking gun" on the 2013 YHF in published news reports, Mr. Hall. Shame on you, really. 19 men and how many others still alive are still afflicted because they have to go on in silence ... I refuse to call that or you - true leadership. Instead I watched you on the Weavers speaking to the young of your Faith this year ... that was hard for me ... very sad ... I will do my best to place the documented facts so there is some source / resource of truths to exist amongst a "Kool-Aid Drinking" environment currently in the fire industry ], incident commander in charge of the fire at the time the hotshots perished, praised the report for finding “no smoking gun,” according to published news reports."
"The inherent contradictions in a report that assigns no blame for the deaths of so many young men reveal what murky standards wild-land firefighters must work under."
"On one hand, the National Interagency Fire Center website instructs them always to obey the 10 “Standard Fire Orders” and 18 “Watch Out” situations developed to protect firefighters in the field. Indeed, the center states that the rules are to be strictly followed: “We don’t bend them, we don’t break them.”
"On the other, the same agency adopted a policy earlier this year that states the “10 and the 18” are merely “guidelines” that should be incorporated into decision making by experienced wildfire leaders making split-second judgments in an environment with many variables that could change suddenly. [ If I can say anything ... I learned from Gene, Don Devendorf, Fred J Schoeffler, and Robert (Bob) Powers ... the 18 are guidelines but not the 10. The ten should always be followed. There use to be 13 but now there is 18 and some even say on the sidelines - "19" since the YHF and some even say "19" (death from above) since the 1985 Fire Season that 2013 YHF IC Roy Hall was on ... the Butte Fire. Right, Roy? ]
"The result is a system that makes it virtually impossible to hold anyone accountable for fatal accidents, that leaves firefighters with no clear directives about how to operate in the field."
Copy and paste: “Everybody’s lawyering up … That’s why the report’s written that way.” — Doug Campbell,[RiP] a retired Forest Service fire-management officer who’s widely respected for developing a wildfire-prediction system used in more than 20 European countries.
“There appears to be a kinder, gentler, and softer approach” to enforcing the 10 Standard Fire Orders, says Dick Mangan, a retired wildfire accident investigator who has participated in many high-profile, wildfire-fatality reviews — including ones concerning the 1990 Dude Fire near Payson that killed six firefighters and the 1994 South Canyon fire in Colorado that claimed 14 lives."
“I have a hard time understanding that everybody did everything right, and 19 people died,” he says. [emphasis added]
• "The investigation report didn’t thoroughly examine the mental and physical condition of the Granite Mountain crew on the day it was dispatched to Yarnell — its scheduled day off and the 28th day it had worked in June."
The report may have failed to explain that "condition" of the men but us, Yarnell Hill Fire Eyewitnesses- Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan and Joy A Collura, have always shared the conditions we saw everyone of the 20 Granite Mountain Hotshots on June 30, 2013 on the Weaver Mountains. Why is there zero reports of other firefighters explaining the state they saw the men on that day? Weird, huh.
"There still was more than two hours of daylight after the fire first was reported at 5:41 p.m. on Friday, June 28 — more than enough time for a quick strike by firefighters before nightfall, wildfire experts say."
I will have to go pull my 911 calls but I do believe the first report was earlier - I will look it up.
From the article:
The whole aftermath from all Investigations really did not cover the key crucial information we shown them but ADOSH touched on it. I was disappointed when I saw Lead Investigator on the Interagency Yarnell Hill Fire Serious Accident Investigation Team (2013) - Brad Mayhew come out with a book series and not touch on areas much needed to be done. Here is one of the book reviews:
Continued areas I want to remember from Chapter One:
Reply to calvin post on December 8, 2013 at 10:54 am
>> calvin said:
>> It should also be noted that ( in addition to Blue Ridge Hotshots) >> ASM2 (Thomas French and John Burfiend) were not allowed to >> be interviewed ( by ADOSH ) either.
Not true… if the WFAR is to be believed.
On page 15 of the Wildland Fire Associates Report ( WAFR ) it has a brief discussion of when ASM2 was requesting the ‘timeout’ to verify where Granite Mountain really was and OPS1 ( Abel ) blew him off and just said “they’re in good black.”
There is a ‘footnote (6)’ on the ASM2 references in the WAFR and footnote (6) on page 15 says…
(6) ADOSH Interview with ASM2.
So if you are right about ADOSH being denied access to ASM2 as well as the Blue Ridge Hotshots… then that footnote in the WAFR is a total lie. [emphasis added]
Reply to calvin post on December 8, 2013 at 9:22 am >> calvin wrote… >> Any comments about the photo on page 13 Of Wildlands Fire >> Associates Report (WFAR?) How does this picture fit in with >> the rest of Mackenzie photos? >> Is this from Mackenzie phone or camera? No. It is NOT! This is NEW… and from a previously UNKNOWN source. Look closely. That is Christopher MacKenzie himself on the RIGHT hand side of this photo taking his picture IMG_0888 which would eventually become the photo on page 23 of the SAIR, and the one where the SAIT willy-nilly dialed back the actual TIME the photo was taken by 11-12 minutes just to suit their made-up narrative. THIS photo, on page 13 of the WFA report, was taken by whoever was standing just to the LEFT of Christopher MacKenzie just as he took his own IMG_0888. THIS photo ( in the WFA ) was actually taken only 3-5 seconds AFTER Christopher ( on the right ) took his own IMG_0888. There are only just a few seconds of separation between the two… but the WFA photo is definitely just (immediately) AFTER Chrstopher’s IMG_0888. How can you tell?… easy. Look at the SMOKE in both photos. At the far right of the smoke cloud… there is a large swirl that, at that moment, looks just like the letter ‘C’. It is present in BOTH photographs… and has only advanced just slightly in relation to the ground as seen in Christopher’s IMG_0888. Now look at the smoke plume just above the edge of where the orange fireline on the ground stops as it tracks east. In the WFA photo… it has ‘puffed out’ only slightly from the way it is seen in Christopher’s IMG_0888. So who the hell took this WFA page 13 photo? WFA photo caption only says… “Figure 4. Photo taken by a GMIHC Crew member on two-track road on June 30, 2013.” Great. Thanks for nuthin’, fellas. These are NEW photos ( Previously unknown to even exist ). WHAT ‘device’ is this? WHOSE ‘device’ is this? Is this actually from one of the ACTIC ( Arizona Counter Terrorism Information Center ) data recovery dumps from one of the iPhones or Androids recovered at the deployment site and properly entered into evidence… …or is it from another ‘digital camera’ that ( like Christopher’s Canon Powershot ) was recovered from the bodies but never actually entered into evidence by the YCSO police investigators? How many MORE photos are there from ‘this device’? Taken at WHAT times?? Where are the originals and/or copies? WHO has them now? Inquiring minds WANT TO KNOW. ** MORE WRIST WATCHES DISCOVERED IN THIS WFA PHOTO We now discover at least TWO more wrist watches. Christopher MacKenzie himself ( that’s his left arm in the WFA photo ) has a big one. Looks DIGITAL to me but the resolution is so good I think I may be able to actually identify the exact make/model of watch. Stay tuned. It also has the kind of ‘plastic band’ that would have melted during the burnover so this may be the ‘loose watch’ that was discovered in a shelter that ultimately didn’t even have a firefighter in it ( as per the YCSO police report ). Now look at Steed’s RIGHT arm. He is also now confirmed to be wearing a wrist watch that day… and his looks to be ANALOG. That means there’s a good chance Steed’s own watch could (finally) confirm the exact time of burnover, unless the analog parts kept running when the flames hit. [emphasis added]
Gary Olson says
…if any Blue Ridge Hotshots are following any of this…PLEASE DO NOT SAY ANYTHING TO ANYBODY ABOUT ANYTHING YOU MIGHT KNOW OR THINK YOU KNOW…EVEN IN CONFICENCE…THEY WILL BURN YOU IN A HEARTBEAT, and everything you have worked for will END.
And even if a state judge orders something, it will most likely be moved into federal court by a motion and then the federal judge will dismiss it. There is a really, really, long list of people here who need to do the right thing, and even if you know something, you are way, way, down that list. Please. [emphasis added]
Roger that. Just confirming here myself. Mr. Dougherty has requested we simply ‘continue’ this discussion under his other article thread about the new ADOSH report… which is at this URL…
Are you Dave Kelley? "Super" Dave? Can you explain "how" WantsToKnowTheTruth had no idea and where and what that you wrote (above image) so many years ago??? Why a general statement without letting us know your thoughts in full detail vs just this perception without reasons why or how...
Copy and paste the above link below and my inserts or emphasis added in bold green of areas I want to remember from Chapter One.
RTS: Re: Your post: December 7, 2013 at 12:11 pm
>> RTS asked… >> Not following here, so would you please give me some >> more insight where you’re going with this one?
The ADOSH contains information that SHOULD have been in the SAIR about additional ‘communications’ with Marsh/Steed right around the crticial ‘discussing their options’ moment(s). We only now learn that OPS2 ( Musser ) asked if they could ‘spare resources’ down in Yarnell to help with evacuations ( already in progress ).
Marsh/Steed say NO. They are ‘committed to the black’ They tell Musser to ‘ask Blue Ridge if they can help’.
So that was their ‘Turn Down’ and ‘alternate option’.
Ok. Fine. Whatever. We SHOULD have known about this a LOOOONG time ago ( Sic: SAIR report )… but here’s what we still do NOT know…
1) EXACTLY what Musser asked them. Was it a SPECIFIC request such as ‘we need help in Glen Ilah”?… or just a general “we sure could use you guys down here.”
2) Did Musser ONLY ask them to ‘come down’ because ( as you say ) Blue Ridge was ALREADY busy and Musser knew that?… or was Musser just as clueless about what BR was actually doing as he was about a lot of other things that day?
3) Did Musser ALREADY ask Blue Ridge to do whatever it was he wanted GM to do BEFORE calling Marsh/Steed? If so… did BR turn him down and that’s the only reason he was now calling GM?
4) Did Musser do what Marsh/Steed said and call BR for some ‘specific’ (new) assignment AFTER he got off the horn with Marsh/Steed? If so… what did BR say then and also… did Musser call Marsh/Steed back AGAIN and tell THEM what BR said?
5) Is this ( now documented ) ‘Musser asking for help’ moment the sole reason for the mysterious ‘comfort level’ discussion references in the MacKenzie video… or is there even more about that we still don’t know?
The ‘where I am going with this’ should be obvious.
We know a LITTLE bit more now about what factors might have been involved in the Marsh/Steed ‘discussing their options’ and ‘comfort level’ discussions… and that ‘little bit more’ now involves Blue Ridge in a way that no one had thought of before. Did Musser ask Marsh/Steed to ‘change their plans’ up there because of something Blue Ridge was refusing to do?…. or was it because they were already too busy and Musser knew that. If Musser knew that… then why didn’t the ADOSH say… “Musser calls Marsh/Steed to ask if they could spare resources for Yarnell… because the other hotshot team named Blue Ridge was already very busy at that time.”
Either way… Blue Ridge is now intricately ‘involved’ ( as I said, indirectly ) in the mysterious decision 19 men made to march to their deaths.
That’s what the ADOSH is saying, and that’s probably what Blue Ridge’s lawyers have also realized from a ‘litigation / liability’ standpoint… hence… BR was being ‘unusually uncooperative’ with ADOSH.
>> RTS also wrote… >> So, I disagree with the “blunder’ assertion at least as it >> relates to the BR HS. GM HS “blunder” what they did >> and died because of it, yes.
I didn’t say BR ‘blundered’. I only said GM did.
I don’t know how else you would characterize 19 (supposedly) trained, professional firefighters breaking almost every rule in their ‘own book’ and walking straight into a box canyon full of unburned fuel and an advancing wall of flames in BROAD DAYLIGHT… and no one knowing where there were to even TRY and help them live.
‘One of ( if not THE ) greatest blunders in the history of wildland firefighting’ describes it pretty well, I think. [emphasis added]
Robert the Second says
Gary Olson says
We still stand by that comment above to this date.
Dr Ted Putnam and Wayne Neill took the time out to share and "educate" to us hikers. John N. MacLean at the Yarnell Diner took a splinter out of my hand in such a caring fatherly way. Holly showed much support and had been kind-- she was the one who introduced the Eyewitness Hikers in 2014 with Wildland Firefighter Foundation gear that sat on my shelf for years left alone because the PRRs and FOIAs started come in and the we learned much more on MacLean and Holly that was unsettling towards us eyewitnesses to the YHF - it was sad to learn it that way because the texts were like ??? It was sad.
"I don’t know how else to phrase that.
You either understand what I am talking about there, or you don’t.
ADOSH has told us there is another ‘story’ here that has to be told… and the ones who can tell it the best ( who are, thankfully, all still very much alive ) have chose to be totally ‘uncooperative’. Bad choice, I think."
The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says
Gary Olson says
Gary Olson says
OK…here is my best shot of cleaning up and clarifying at least some of what I have said in some of my previous statements and comments since this process first began. The process of trying to figure out why 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots, almost an entire hotshot crew; something that has never before in the history of wildland firefighting, died on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
And one more attempt by me to TRY and share some insight into the wildland firefighting culture to those who are working so hard on this very difficult and intricate problem. All of this is because the Serious Accident Investigation Team (SAIT) took a pass on their publicly stated core assignment and opted instead to protect the agencies and the managers who were responsible for this catastrophe from civil liability rather than disclose the truth which most assuredly, was their publicly unstated core assignment...My only caveat is that you have to be willing to put your real name on your comments, and be willing to state your background and experiences. I don’t think any of these anonymous or fictitious cyber online names work for an SME. Putting your real name on your beliefs and throwing them into the public arena is a very hard to do as all of you who have done it know. You really open yourself up for criticism and attacks on you as a person. If you don’t believe me, just try it... retired in 2006 as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Sr. Special Agent, GS-1811) while working in Phoenix, Arizona, for the BLM Washington Office of Law Enforcement & Security. I now have a very full and busy retirement life. I build and maintain a road trip travel website and an off-road Jeeping web site. Don’t ask me how I made the transition form a GS-464-Forestry Technician, to a GS-1811-Criminal Investigator, it’s a long and convoluted story.
And since I collect or make almost all of my own digital material (videos, photographs, maps) to fuel these web sites, I stay very busy going Jeeping, taking road trips and editing the book I have written about my experiences as a wildland firefighter and my role in the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster. I, along with my partner and fellow crew sawyer, ignited the backfire that killed the Mormon Lake Hotshots. That is part of who I am, and what motivates me on this subject...ased on my 18 years of experience as a GS-1811-Criminal Investigator, whenever there was an internal problem and often even an external problem, all I had to do was look under the nearest rock and odds were pretty good that I would find the manager who created the problem hiding there from the sunlight.
My book may never be published, but that fact doesn’t matter, I wrote the damn thing, that’s all that matters to me. And at the risk of being accused of blatant, unethical, and selfish personal promotion, you can download a free copy of the first chapter of my book, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods” for free at http://www.ourfiregods.com...You don’t have to be a current or former wildland firefighter (but if helps) to be interested or participate in this on-line discussion (my first) WTKTT proves that point. By the way, “Wants To Know The Truth”, you are without a doubt, the SMARTEST GUY IN THE ROOM.
...Page 24 of the SAIR
:: As BR Supt is en route to pick up drivers to :: move the Granite Mountain crew carriers, :: SPGS1 contacts him to ask if they still have :: the option to burn out from the dozer line. :: BR Supt tells him no. DIVS A, hearing the :: transmission, agrees and says he believes :: the fire is almost as far as the Granite Mountain :: vehicles. :: :: A moment later, DIVS A says, “I want to pass on :: that we’re going to make our way to our :: escape route.”
PASS on WHAT?
The SAIR doesn’t say.
ADOSH now describes this same moment but doesn’t even mention Marsh saying “I want to pass on that”.
What did someone ASK him to do ( nicely? ) at THAT point?
So I think the Michelle Lee photo actually DOES capture the moment when the Blue Ridge Hotshots were ‘assuming the worst’.
I have always thought it was a little ‘odd’, though.
There just wasn’t something quite right about that ‘huddle’.
Like there was ‘something more to it’ than just those men ‘huddling’ together to share their grief.
It almost looks like SOMETHING is being intently DISCUSSED.
Even the Blue Ridge Hotshot in the foreground has his hand to his ear to make sure he is hearing EVERY WORD that the ‘quarterback’ in this huddle ( Frisby? ) is saying.
Could this be the moment when all of these Blue Ridge Hotshots are actually being told “Do NOT talk about what has just happened here today with ANYONE.”?
The photo I am talking about is here…
It was ‘tweeted’ by Michelle Lee from the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant at 5:48 PM, June 30, 2013…
I can fill in some gaps on this comment above - reach me 480 559 1971 to meet in person and I possibly could share to you some information back channel than know it has to remain there because how I learned it. I have not yet met one person except for Dr Ted Putnam who I felt what I speak to them stays with them - I wish we could have more discussions but the wrong leaks - then all I gathered can vanish and anytime I gave an intentional leak - that is what has happened. Sad but true. I can state I know more on this topic. Tom Harbor possibly knows I know more as well because I addressed it in person back in North Carolina to him.
It was nice to see John Dougherty's involvement early on on his own website:
Hey Mike, more than just a SOMEBODY knows and it is very sad. Very sad.
TTWARE… You are right… PFD has MORE than just one of those all-white extended cabs. If you go into ‘Street View’ using Google and look down the driveway at the back parking lot of the Prescott Fire Station… there are at least ( only? ) TWO sitting there by the dumpster.
When I made what I thought was the ‘definite ID’ on Willis’ truck there at that Ranch House Restaurant ( in the Russ Reason interview video ) I thought that Willis was the ONLY one ( Other than GM itself ) from PFD ‘assigned’ to the fire that day. You are right. We have since learned there were all kinds of people from PFD there that day ( but we still don’t know exactly WHO? ).
Regardless… I still think that is actually Willis’ pickup there at the cafe with the flashers going in the ‘Russ Reason’ video.
The license plate number is clearly visible.
NOTE: It is POSSIBLE that the ’4′ is simply some kind of small Arizona logo which would make the actual plate number just “ATE 515″.
Here is that original post from way up above describing how I arrived at the conclusion in the first place…
** POSITIVE ID ON DARRELL WILLIS VEHICLE IN VIDEO
I have been working to identify previously unidentified vehicles in that last video I found and I have one done.
That is definitely Darrell Willis’ all-white truck that is parked between the two cafe’ driveway entrances and has its flashers on.
Here is how I verified that…
Darell Willis has been personally named in the first legal claim filed on the Yarnell incident.
An address is published in the first claim filed 11/15/13 associated with Willis….
Darrell Willis Wildlands Division Chief Granite Mountain IHS Crew 1700 Iron Springs Road, Prescott, Arizona 86305
This is NOT his home address. It is simply the street address of the Prescott Fire Station… but that turned out to be all I needed to ID his vehicle.
If you simply drop this address line into the search bar of Google maps…
1700 Iron Springs Road, Prescott, Arizona 86305
…you are now looking at the Prescott Fire Station on a nice, bright sunny day.
You will see a number of ‘all-white’ vehicles parked outside the station in the rear parking lot.
Position your Google Maps ‘Street View’ to look right down the station driveway on the north side, then zoom in on the all-white extended cab pickup sitting in the rear of the lot between the dumpster and the other black pickup with the over-size tires.
This all-white extended-cab pickup is an EXACT match for the all-white extended-cab pickup seen in the video… right down to the wheel fender cowlings and the actual tire rims.
In the video… the flashers are running but if you look at the tailgate of the vehicle in front you can also clearly see that the headlights are ON and shining onto that tailgate of the vehicle in front of it. This most probably means the engine is running and whoever is sitting in THIS vehicle is also using their high-amp on-board radio and the engine is running so as not to run down the battery.
In the VERY first part of the video… the driver’s side door of this all-white pickup is open and if you squint… I think you can see someone’s legs sticking out of the car like they are sitting sideways in the driver’s seat with their feet on the ground outside of the pickup.
I would guess that is Willis… just listening to the radio.
The actual LICENSE PLATE number of this all-white extended cab pickup truck in the video with its flashers on is…
NOTE: It is POSSIBLE that the ’4′ is simply some kind of small Arizona logo which would make the actual plate number just “ATE 515″.
Wtktt, I know more than one who also saw this actions besides "Jim"- in your comment below when you quoted the hikers but because WHO THEY ARE- I am stuck with the data and they are afraid to speak up but one did to Scott and Fred so I am not the only one who knows--
Here is the link to the video…
Video title: Box Canyon Fly-through
Here is the ‘About’ information published along with the video…
A down and back fly-through of the box canyon at about 100 feet of altitude. It continues on past the deployment site to the Boulder Springs Ranch, the driveway that leads to it, and then back across the ranch and the box canyon again from east to west. The NAVSAT satellite terrain data used in these images was dated April 9, 2013, just 82 days before the incident on June 30, 2013. The video also shows the series of small clearings that were just west of the deployment site.
:: There were some things he (Brendan) didn’t want to discuss about :: that day with The Daily Courier.
Like what? ( or, at least, WHY not? ) Who else ‘knows what he knows’? ( as he clearly states they do ).
So in the same breath he says he will always “make it known what happened that day… because I was there”… and then says there are things he “won’t talk about”.
Surely this young man has to realize what a sense of ‘mystery’ he, himself, is adding to this whole thing with statements like that.
When he is called to testify in court as one of the only living witnesses to a terrible ( and now historic ) accident…
He won’t be able to take the 5th… and he won’t be able to pick and choose what to say like you can with a reporter.
I hope he’s ready… ‘cus it’s a-comin’.