Part 5 of 5 - Underneath every simple, obvious story about ‘human error,’ there is a deeper, mor -B
Part 5 of 5 - Underneath every simple, obvious story about ‘human error,’ there is a deeper, more complex story - a story about the system in which people work. Will these formerly unrevealed public records change the account of what occurred on June 30, 2013? - B
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Monday, July 29, 2019 9:05 PM, I sent Bill Boyd a sample NWCG form to give to John Truett to be a candidate for the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride -
***Before Yarnell Hill Fire June 30, 2013, if I was irritated, annoyed, angry or dismissive of someone (I was usually tired or ill) ... or if I saw another complaining or gossiping about someone or me ... I would catch myself, deep breath and I would put myself in the other's shoes. I wish I could get though in the aftermath of the Yarnell Hill Fire, the amount of walls placed up versus building bridges. I tried, recently, with someone I feel who began this journey of entering so many people into my path who I hiked freely tied to this man; John MacLean ...
When I went to his place in D.C. because I was staying in the Cleveland Park area and was near ...
I so bad wanted him to listen to understand— yet I thought, his method was to listen, to reply; not to comprehend. I just want to bring awareness to this to the world in case another eyewitness faced this tied to a fire fatality that you are not alone.
I hoped he would just listen for what’s truly behind the words I was sharing. It does take us all to bridge together versus dismiss another's ideas or being on the stance because of InvestigativeMEDIA ( IM ) participation one wants zero involvement, yet not seeing IM as a journalistic tool. IM does have some solid take aways that was never shown anywhere else on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
The visit was left with a cordial kind handshake that he stated we are on two different paths. I find that to be a shame. I am in this to bridge not divide. I think he lacks perspective on the situation. That lack of perspective and transparency shifts at times into a lack of trust, for me. I thought we can build a solid external set of folks to try and get the data out yet what I see is "Yeah, this person showed and told me this but I cannot tell anyone but you Joy" ... Really? It's not easy to carry all I carry - it's lonely here.
I thought ... "Wildland Fire Author" ... and son of legendary Norman MacLean ... he could help me bridge that area but instead he said if I thought that - he is a dead end for me. I didn’t realize how toxic this behavior was until it was pointed out to me. It was in that shake I felt the "spinning gold" effect as I did years ago when I knew the celeb and Government Folk world who are in this life for gain, image and financial prosperity...
I pitched my time and tent in gathering on the YH Fire yet I did take away in that handshake a forever division on his end and I refuse to see the good in that in the long run that we are to accept we are on two different paths ???
I guess there is this "fire in my belly" to deliver world-class information and so in his mind it was a dead end to reach out to him but I will place the photos out on my blog and it is already known but I will say it strongly again - John MacLean and anyone tied to him are not given permission to use any content of my blog or IM without my written permission to use for any made-for-profit book(s) or their presentations - the best they can do is guide people here to make their own assessments.
By saying I have reached a dead end in looking - he fails to know I am not giving up yet I felt if he would take "ego" out of this and the emotions, we could make a difference in the Wildland Fire Industry but he needs to know it takes us all - I accept blame in my actions and I give credit to where it belongs - because it does take "we, the people" to ensure the data is pushed to the front not just one source - which he spent talking at the Foresters and Fire Wardens Conference in 2018, that five years later let us focus to Saturday June 29, 2013. Really?
I am here to break some of the toxicity cultured in the Fire Industry. These Wildland Fire Leaders must understand the problems their team faces, and then begin doing anything to remove barriers to entry so their team can do the best job possible. In my research, these barriers include a lack of resources, a lack of direction and a lack of corrective culture and lack of true leadership and a lack of weeding out the insidious people affecting the agency.
Time and time again, I see the people credentialed up yet lack the experience or good ol' "common sense". It was this very Fire Industry I learned how John MacLean truly felt about me but all along treating me cordial and kindly in emails and in person ... that was not fair or right ... If it was not for the Firefighters impeding the flow of honest feedback and communication throughout the organization to me I would have thought John Norman MacLean liked the Yarnell Hill Fire hikers Tex and Joy yet Charlie Moseley shared in pure form what was being filtered behind closed doors away from me and it was the complete opposite and I was told that he spoke inappropriately at a smokejumper conference from John MacLean's friends. I had it removed online legally. It’s easy to marginalize me when I am not in the industry years ago when he did this presentation but I am now in the Fire Industry and I am here to stay. I am not one you can retaliate with, intimidate, public trash me anonymous or not or try to get my blacklisted from events and conferences based on your lies and delusional verbiages.
Being closed-minded and unwilling to change your perspective will create a biased story and if you are solely going to focus to just Saturday and not the entire weekend especially the final 52 minutes moment than slowly I, the YH Fire eyewitness, will keep pushing the facts to the front... all it takes is just one of the firefighters to sign a release form and your story goes "live" ... it is strange how so many rely on their personal lives and what's going on and or they do not want to be the first one and yet I am not even in your Industry - just training - and I am saying it starts with Y O U speaking up.
I have the documents that prove the leadership failures and lies on the Granite Mountain Hotshots further explained below. I have presented them on IM. Let us take responsibility for any of the Crew’s failures by talking about it versus suppression. Then propose solutions instead of assigning blame. We need to speak about the inconsistency we see with our leaders today.
I would also like to personally isolate anyone in leadership roles who are perpetually late, blabbing/gossip/snitching versus addressing anyone who is detrimentally affecting them-self and the Crew, you’re three sheets to the wind drunk or high, you make a big deal out of nothing, run around like a chicken with his head cut off, lazy not well thought out shoddy job - those people I will call to the front because you need additional mentoring and training or get the hell out.
Remember, Mistakes Happen.
People Mess Up.
Six Months ago on InvestigativeMEDIA (IM), I started to post Eric Shane Marsh's Profile to begin to show facts versus gossip on the topic of "Human Factors" and Leadership". You explain to me why I should add you besides curiosity to view it, I will possibly add your email there. I like to avoid harm to Eric and his family as well as me for presenting it so I have to have a full log book of full names and reasons one wants to peak at the lies on his resume and applications. It is important to present the lies though for we need to really look at our leaders today. Are they who they state they are?
Links from IM:
We should steer one another in the right direction. I am not trying to show off or prove others wrong but I am in this for relevancy and value and to be helpful, and at times perceived as just freaking annoying because I do have data and I time stamp it and try to get signatures and if I do not get the signatures - I find myself leaving the data shelved and awaits its time but I am in this for the long haul and if I cannot share publicly I do tell you how to gain the tools yourself best way I can without losing my chance to seal areas to happen for the future of certain areas.
Elizabeth Nowicki said February 25, 2015 AT 10:07 AM on IM that RTS was Fire20+
yet go back and read the comments and it is easy if you met her but Fire20+ is one of the team participants of John MacLean, Holly Neill, and Alan Sinclair-
She is a USFS Fire Dispatcher, Deanna Thompson.
So, the reason I state this is not to be a snitch but John MacLean said he did not want to participate with anyone who was associated and participating on IM yet his own research assistants have been on IM participating... check it out for yourselves:
CTRL F (search) and put FIRE20+ or Holly / Holly Neil in CTRL F search to see the following posts:
The comments on author John Maclean's Facebook page are a lot different than those posted about him on InvestigativeMEDIA.
Historically though, it was John MacLean who was there when Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny) discovered that burnt small round ball about 3/4 inch diameter roll of pink flagging/tape on the 2 track road, November 11, 2013 so how come SAIT - SAIR nor ADOSH ever saw this item. ( 5510ft elevation N34*13.290W112*46.931 ) Those coordinates do, in fact, match the point up on the two-track that even the SAIT investigators were calling the ‘Descent Point.’ And John tied that hiking event into his Smokejumper Conference Presentation, yet he played it like Sonny and I were in some sort of relationship and he tried to disparage us hikers. And he was inappropriate in regards to the two Yarnell Hill Fire Eyewitnesses. (Any underlined words are actual links to where I write about John MacLean. I was never deserving of this "dead end" brush-off this recent Washington, DC visit in Summer 2019.
——YouTube video… ——————————————————————– This is a CROSSFADE between Blue Ridge Hotshot Wardemups IMG_3957 taken at exactly 4:35:06 PM from the passenger side of one of the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers as it was about to pull into the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant…
"There were MANY ‘strange coincidences’ that day in Yarnell." [emphasis added; WTKTT -DECEMBER 21, 2014 AT 12:13 AM] [re-written below in my words but they are WTKTT]
'One of the coincidences has always been the fact that not long after Blue Ridge Hotshot Wardemups took his IMG_3957… I took an identical photograph looking in the exact same direction [when we drove about town] and at the EXACT same point on Highway 89. And I mean EXACT. I shutter and basically ‘clicked’ at the EXACT same point on the asphalt of Highway 89 that Wardemups did. Unbeknownst to either of us as we took these separate photos… the CENTER of BOTH Wardemups and my photos also happened to be focused on the exact same ...
I want to push more photos and videos to the forefront this Summer or Fall 2019.
Before we get into some known or anonymous photos below I should see "tens of thousand" view hits on the recent YouTube video that Wants to Know The Truth (WTKTT) did and it is VERY IMPORTANT what WTKTT did because the photos below that so many locals feel the fire was at certain areas near their homes and I want to show them with what is public to this date - this is the only known time stamped photo that shows you "no fire" in the Sesame Street to Shrine Corridor and has been the "key" photo for the naysayers and defensive ones or just people out there saying "show me more" because this is all I know about is this MacKenzie pic that there was never any fire in the Sesame to Shrine Corridors or spur roads that June 30, 2013.
Here is an anonymous person's photos:
When I was in Schooling/Conferences Mode this Spring 2019- I want to say Thank You WantsToKnow TheTruth (WTKTT) from InvestigativeMedia on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 10:21 PM, WTKTT created a YOUTUBE video from photos we shared with him because it is important to let FFs and homeowners
UNDERSTAND HOW IMPORTANT YOUR PHOTOS AND VIDEOS ARE TO PROPERLY ASSESS THE YH FIRE - We awaited the signature how the person wanted to present it out - 'anonymous-by-request ...
This also proves that JOY A COLLURA was not the only person to have photos of the Granite Mountain Hotshots ( GMHS ) on June 30, 2013.
WTKTT stated: 'As it turns out... one of the photos from that "Deertrack Drive"/closer to BSR Driveway collection
contains a photo which actually SHOWS 3 of the Granite Mountain Hotshots ( including, apparently, Jesse Steed wearing a RED hardhat ) preparing to start their first 'indirect' burnout the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013.
No great revelation... we know that's what they were doing once they got up there... but it's now just one more important piece of photographic evidence from that day... and just one more of only a few known photographs
that actually SHOW them 'up there' at work[/rest] and what they were doing "up there" that day.' [emphasis added]
Filename ( IMG_6696.JPG ) and that photo has a VERIFIED timestamp of 10:36 AM  the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013:
I know the owner of these photos and I thank you for having the courage to share them to the world-
NIKON D80 photos:
Sunday June 30, 2013 photos:
How does a fire that Shumate told ADOSH Investigator Barry Hicks was a "Buick size fire" give off these kinds of smoke columns?
June 30, 2013, 10:40 AM (1040) Shrine Road and Sesame Area smoke column views to follow:
What really happened out there on State Land, Maughan Property, and Harper Canyon that June 30, 2013, morning and afternoon and as well on the Sesame to Shrine Corridors and spur roads?
At 10:41 AM - what do you think are those small dots in front of each arrow? Unmanned Aerial Vehicles
( UAV ) ? See:
please email for original photo if you are trying to figure it out - ask for DSC_0018 4 file photo.
From a property right in front of the Helms - this Smoke plume in photo is no where near the big bad fire on the Harper Canyon over by Peeples Valley as people have told me they walked away from on the YH Fire Staff Ride and PAY ATTENTION - the metadata I had fact checked for accuracy as well where person took photo (site of line - Sesame Area section) not Harper Canyon area and pay close attention to the time photo was taken:
without the metadata insert:
It concerned the person so much they left near the Helm's driveway to drive to Deer Way and Crest Way to get the next photo a minute later to get a higher look to assess the fire - Peeples Valley areas versus the town of Yarnell:
All that time people were looking at the Peeples Valley Fires and that big bad fire on Harper Canyon mentioned from peoples' Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride takeaway feedback - not many folks were documenting the other areas of Yarnell or were they - and they just not yet have been made public yet:
This is not the Harper Canyon Area or Peeples Valley area and photo above and below were taken near the Helm's dirt driveway:
Shortly AFTER the person took the photo above they did receive the 'CodeRed' emergency evacuation alert. According to other research and online reporting... those 'CodeRed' alerts went out at 4:08 PM that afternoon. That would qualify as 'shortly AFTER 4:01 PM and match what happened.
I cried immensely when I saw this next photo because you go from 4:01pm to then the descent down YH Fire June 30, 2013, 4:52 PM, and I remember strongly on June 30, 2013 at 8:30 PM after bringing Penny and her pets to her son at the Family Dollar Store telling my husband and brother-in-law I have to go to Wickenburg where then God shared to our lives 80 yr old Phil and 78 y.o. Sandy Lobeck and their initial YH Fire account was horrifying and their horses - Sandy was so ... - no words can describe it - ... yet it is their initial account and the hundreds after is why I do not give up.
Hardest part to think that when this photo was taken - a little over a mile away 19 men died minutes before:
Here is YOUTUBE WF's Photos and Video where I have asked for the time stamp of these photos but never heard back yet:
Correction in above photo - "same areas were struck on June 30, 2013" - meant June 28, 2013.
World- I use to have the belief I was born in this world living it alone in my own mind because as a child my mother worked so much and so hard and I was too young to understand and in that also facing other family dysfunctions due to my dad's brother's wife at the time.
- that phase paralyzed me -
and through the aftermath of the Yarnell Hill Fire and my listening to God I began to do things so out of who I am.
Cooking, gardening, hiking, elders, kids that was what I wanted to know only; really -
God already prepped my journey for His plan before the fire with pioneering and learning the trails with Tex Harold Eldon (Sonny) Gilligan and Tex showed me the journey varieties of fire and its fire behaviors and my own behaviors towards it due to unresolved childhood trauma.
In the early 80's, my mom went West (Phoenix, Arizona) to finalize the divorce with my Dad who I was once "Daddy's Little Girl" - I was very sad. I did not know being so far in miles if I would ever see him again. I did not want to be in the home being watched by this quiet disciplinary grandma (wooden spoon survivor I am ) so I cut school and ran into the forest to my fort I built high in a tree.
Nearby prankster and mischievous one, Jeff Stein (Toms River, NJ) set fire to my towering in the pines fort with not realizing I was hiding out in it and I scorched my hair (that awful smell) getting down from the trees as it was burning... I lost my long locks as I quickly cut it off and flushed them down the toilet due to the smell and sprayed a lot of that original scent Lysol of the 80's ( that awful ugh smell ).
I looked in the mirror and I took scissors and my brother Paul came home and was in awe as to "what did I just do" ??? and "mom is gonna kill me and him because he was older" tone so he tried to help me fix it and the then his cut began the path of my "Billie Jean" look. That seem liked it would suck that phase going from the traditional long locks to that and it did for a few days but I figured hair grows and just be me. I did .
Yet I learned early on how quickly people go to judging but for some reason it was not a difficult path for me so I think what happened ages ago helped me in this aftermath of the Yarnell Hill Fire because I have been misjudged since the start in this.
I am just a person who saw things that did not add up to the end results. With God, I will break any ranks or ego in this as I push the data to the front and eliminating any unit cohesion and break their "sowing the chaos" mentalities ever since June 30, 2013.
What happened since our hike with John MacLean ??? -
"Hi Tex and Joy, We will meet you at Ranch House restaurant at 6:15AM on Friday! Ted has asked if Johnny Kirkley can come along, I'm not sure if he will come or not, still waiting to hear back from Ted. But if he does want to come, there would be 4 of us. Is this OK with you? It sounds like John had a good day with you yesterday! See you soon, Holly" ... then Nov 19, 2013, 9:15 PM she sends me this photo of Wayne and Holly Neill from the 2006 Tripod Fire ( to me, one of the megafires - 175,184 acres ) when asking me about the Smith Ambulance experience off Deer Track Rd and oddly shares to me in the email - "Don't throw darts at it!" - and that always bewildered me but Charlie Moseley stated on the phone in December 2013 that is probably because she has not been on the band wagon with the hikers and yet I did not believe that because she was always kind to us even helped financially with postage stamps when I mailed to the locals to help with their accounts of the fire :
then receiving this email "Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 8:00 AM - Dear Tex and Joy, ... Meeting you and hiking the hills with you was a memorable experience. I'm not alone in my appreciation: "the boys," the old Cave Junction smokejumpers you spent time with, and my friends Holly and Wayne all came away appreciating your special guiding and interpretive services (that's one way to put it) and having enjoyed the time they spent with you. I look forward to seeing you again in the coming year. Be safe, as they say in the fire world. Best wishes, John N. Maclean"
To then Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 1:33 PM one of John MacLean's friends who visited us from far away shared a photo of Holly Neill, John MacLean, Wayne Neill, Dr. Ted Putnam, Charlie Moseley (Moses), John Manley and John Dougherty at a dinner I was to attend yet Sonny had tranny car problems and Charlie Moseley stated in that dinner he stated to us on Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 11:29 PM "Just a lil heads up here. Some people are trying to belittle your thoughts on the helicopters fanning the flames. My best advice is to stick to your story, because it certainly seems to come from the heart, AND YOU WERE THERE!!!!" [ emphasis added ] and this same message he cc'd to the very people who talked about the hikers and we talked on the cell for hours about each person in that photo as he straight forward told me who was going to "turn on me" and since then his words became facts.
When my court time arrived - Dr. Ted Putnam was never planned to be on the stand but he did and he spoke truth
I did not realize as minimal as ex GMHS squad leader, Phillip “Mando” Maldonado, spoke on our hike with the Weather Channel hike 12-8-13 - he said a lot. His loss, I felt it. Jesse Steed's presence was strong on that hike with Mando - strong. For me, when on the Weavers and I get different information shown to me from the men that died and I write it down and pull records- Steed has always been happy and strong and really feels for the folks left behind because he is fine.
There was a photo shown to me four years ago that someone in Prescott said they could not say much except someone in this photo knows crucial data to YH Fire so maybe by posting it someone can tell me where the pic comes from and why this Prescott person said this to me:
When I was doing defensible space and cleaning weeds on Sonny's Yarnell cabin property 23256 S Mountainaire Dr., there was a man ( David Kadlubowski/The Arizona Republic ) driving through Glen Ilah one year after the YH Fire in a cop car and he asked how to get to the site and we told him the restrictions yet we can take him a legal way and we grabbed our gear and on impulse moment did that hike with him - not planned. I shared some intuitive moments on that hike with him about his own life - very true to form. When I look back to that hike and this photo, I do strongly believe he too has a duty and a message must be shared the actual time stamps of his photos and his account:
'It’s the photo above that shows Paul Musser sitting there in his dark-blue pickup there as it was beginning to get DARK in Yarnell...' [wtktt JANUARY 11, 2016 AT 8:57 PM] This link no longer works:
http://archive.azcentral.com/video/#/Raw%3A+Scene+from+the+Yarnell+Hill+Fire+command+center/2519031306001 yet 'this is the VIDEO version of that same ‘blue-tint’ David Kadlubowski photo taken [above] at the same exact spot this video was shot. I don’t know if Kadlubowski himself shot this video, or not, but if he didn’t then it was by someone standing right next to him when he took that ‘blue-tint’ twilight photo.' [wtktt JANUARY 11, 2016 AT 9:08 PM]
Why wasn't David Kadlubowski in the SAIT SAIR notes when he was there?
I mean please David - (PLEASE) will you share when Kramer's home burned down. What time did you take this photo - it matters to my research:
I have these photo I took of Kramer's Home and I just want to see when David's photo was because this matters to me: