Video 57: Transcript
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so what does the 10 and 18 mean to you since september when i met you
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um well it means the 10 18
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fire orders and rules they mean quite a bit more to me now than um
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they did before i uh i met you and um
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so you know in 1957 they they developed these uh
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these these rules and orders and so um but yeah i increasingly
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um you felt fell back on on to refer to them and
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learned more about the weather and and just overall importances of
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of uh consciousness levels of and what to pay attention to on on fire that you
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know the most the real important things i i have tons of things that
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that i have practiced and done on my own but uh the major points
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basically um have been brought about by my friend joycolora and it's been very
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uh enlightening yeah but i thought it was fred sheffler that got you into it because of
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something what was it about uh yeah one conversation
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him and i were talking on the phone one afternoon i think he called to return a reply to a message i had
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sent him probably like a week before he called and
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caught me off guard that he had called but um he
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had uh mentioned i was actually inquiring into some important
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angles and points of view of uh fire management and uh
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and saying thanks uh on that subject so and what more what what what do they you
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know crew bosses and guys like and what what what did they look for what were the key
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indicators and uh you know kind of how they get so wise and uh
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and what were those you know the what they what what were their things their key and trigger point things that uh
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so uh yeah fred definitely brought up to uh my attention that weather would be
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probably of the utter mouse importance for a uh anyone on the line
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but uh berto the guy would be uh he actually kind of kind of
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yeah insulted me somewhat which just did i don't take that sometimes so well but
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i do actually usually uh take it to and strive to learn and
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become better or whatever whatever the comment may be even if it's construction constructive criticism so uh he did yeah
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the weather thing was taped for sure triggered by fred shopler since then i've
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i've totally learned to agree with him on that um point of view and and i've looked at his
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the videos that he's in there's two from i believe the wildlands the uh wildlife buyer lessons learned center so
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there's two different videos on the i believe it was the view fire entrapment and uh
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yeah he um uh i can say that uh very impressed with the
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with his call and um it's something that even before that call that fred made
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many other firefighters have made that call not on such big incidents um i know some of
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them they're very proud they'd never have anyone hurt and uh to protect their guys and stuff and larry young was one
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of them we had this discussion with him about you know uh uh you know go or no go and know when
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things are you know my how to monitor what his position was was you know to protect his guys that's a big crew
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leader or battalion later thing and so uh you know accountability so but yeah the uh bread would have made a in my
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opinion an outstanding call up it should be recognized maybe even more than it is uh today uh the people that made the
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same call before him on smaller incidents i think are just as important
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although fred there's a very good documentary about that fire of the bug and traveling with fred in it and i
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think that's a perfect example i think should be using training classes and uh there's another video with fred
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shoplin it's called the beaufort wind scale um estimation scale beaufort wind
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estimation skill it's a video from lessons learned well on fire also and
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it stresses some very good major things um i think
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i mean if any i've seen all the videos if not i've seen them all two or three times
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but that beaufort windscale video is a very brings out a very
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um critical fire behavior points of view and uh they're they're
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utter of utter most important uh you know imminent danger and i think of
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knowledge that we should also possess i know in a in a you know oc
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crew class years ago we did watch the beaufort windscale um device uh
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video and i i just think that one and the other one with fred in it the the butte fire entrapment video um those are
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there's a lot of good videos were you ever were you ever aware that fred sheffler was actually one of the
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original members to create no wait wait wait were you ever aware
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that he was one of the original people to create the lessons learn center and they have faded him out since
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oh that's a shame i absolutely did not know that
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so fred fred is creating his own lessons learn center uh called the 10-18 uh over
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in yarnell what do you think about it that's outstanding when you told me about it i was like
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totally like a dog wagon stale excited like wow what's next like i was like kind of
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actually if i could have uh boarded whatever it was i would like to be involved and uh because i have a
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lot you know as far as equipment and uh just overall fire knowledge i would have
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loved to be an asset to that i think fred and i maybe hopefully will have conversation again and if we can agree
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on some things and i owe him the respect of that he does know more than most of us and
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i i'm cool with that and i think he's an exceptional guy and he's contributed
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as much as he could so uh that's really all i know about fred and just from you joy but then i appreciate
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the welcome to the friendship with the fred and others and so but a lot of respect
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repeat planning there's another right you're on the right channel as far as
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you know the truth is like you know no one let you know like
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we just period as far as i figured the truth is is is uh
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it's you know science is true and the fact you know it's it's very
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important that we as as fire well and fire personnel no matter what level
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um we learn these lit and it also goes into my heart is just
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bars they didn't die in vain we're we're looking at them we're respecting the people that have perished
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um we're not trying to use uh a huge judgment call on
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their on on what the incident um have incurred uh but so uh but um
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oh goodness i kind of lost my place it it just cuts into me pretty deep discussing these things too but yeah we
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need we need the truth uh we don't want men to die in vain and um there are less these those these
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lessons that happen and it doesn't have to be a fatality but um there's the value of these lessons that we look at
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um close call or fatality the the value is there's there's a
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fun uh i how do i say for lack of better terms
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irreplaceable value on um human lives in my opinion and uh
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and those those lessons that they uh you know when i say they've left
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those they that knowledge for us i say in a way that i respect them and uh
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i think they had given us a lot of knowledge even before they had passed so
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uh i have a lot of respect for them and uh to look at what maybe went wrong or
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or why the call was made um i think it's important that we just we first foremost that respect for that
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the individual and their family and their position what they were trying to do and uh we need to respect it after
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something happens just like when it rains the ground gets wet we need to
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that's just a a form of terminology we need to be reserved in our criticism and our uh
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you know because it's easy to during and after review to pick out the
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the the problems or the mistakes that may have been made and so and even in an
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event where things worked out we can in and after review also we look at
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the effectiveness of what emotions that were made so um the hardship is they want an
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individual is just past so like in fire i think in in life it's important that i
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know that my personal feeling is that they deserve a respect and we're learning from them
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at that point we're accepting what they have left us
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in respect to them and those value those lessons are have irreplaceable value
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there's no there's no it's i don't know how to save much more on that um but it's it's
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basically huge respect that we and and those lessons are irreplaceable and um those
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of us that learn from those lessons and and guys that even like fred shopper that are
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higher up uh subordinate than at a different level than us did so but they have looked at
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these lessons too believe you me i i would have to say and um probably their feeling is the same that
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we need to respect the individual but that we also there's a lot to be had from those incidents
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of uh ones that are close to paris but yeah he's there's
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i've took a huge learning curve and becoming uh
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uh friends with you guys and um i took it to heart you know and uh even without you guys i'm always looking at
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uh big even today uh when you called and so i was on the fire on the phone with the contractor looking at a fire
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to uh go to potentially here so and and i've been looking at videos for the
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last couple days like crazy just that mainly the so there's a louder cage fire study that
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happened in mancino county so i have two questions i have two questions for you
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two questions so when when uh scheffler has a he's got a like a little bit of a
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bite when he talks about people who don't know the 10 and 18 and calls them snowflakes and stuff um did
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you ever have an opportunity to hear that from him or oh yeah i think we had an opportunity to
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get the snowflake the snowballing uh but it was all good i was just on a more at the time
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i think i take things a little too seriously when we're on a on a particularly a particular frequency of
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uh of uh discussion and uh so yeah um i i
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think now it's kind of funny and i i'm sure we'll get some laughs out of that so but uh
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fred uh you know that's fred i know fred now um we haven't talked for a while so
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uh i'm always open i i think he's you know it just as a human being and who he
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who he is i think he's he's a he's a cool guy and a great guy he's he's uh he
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didn't even have to ever say hi to me once just because joyce said that hey this guy you know he's worthy
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or he's pretty smart bro for us a goofy dozer guy but uh so i think uh
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yeah now the value of uh of uh fred and his uh i've taken yep
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should learn some good things and uh because of the snowballing uh or the
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teasing that um snowflake uh um i've taken it upon myself to really
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trying to find out like what's he what what's inside uh for fred and you guys
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and what your true intent i found that it's all good and uh he was trying to tease me a little bit yeah and
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i think that to get me motivated and i think it worked so
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that i can thanks to him and if i get a chance to thank him i will so but yeah
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that's it's been a good learning curve and uh it's for my sake and anyone around me it's very
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necessary and i do appreciate it very much and uh i'll never take it for granted and we just keep on learning
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though see because an old man years ago working at lunchtime one day we're laughing telling jokes at lunch
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and uh our boss and he says hey you guys you know this and that you go over there and do that and take the bulldozer that
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and the greater over there and then they we kind of laughed and i think he said somebody might have said something like
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oh i know to the boss or something he says yeah you know but he says you better know because if you when the day you quit
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learning he says you're dead we're all done and that's an 80 year old guy and uh in
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fred's own way i think calling me the snowflake or poke a little fun whatever
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he it uh motivated me in the right way and uh so it's been it's been all good and uh i
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i think uh i haven't really discussed much of anything uh that our group fred and joy
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clearer group bread shop but but we're not really a group so like i want to kind of interrupt
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because i think that's what happens is everybody thinks we're not necessarily
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the same intentions yeah that's what i mean because a lot of people think i'm connected to fred so like right now i'm
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being attacked as saying i've harassed wildland firefighters and then when i look at the players um he's actually the
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one that has talked about those people that i i'm very minimal i'm i'll bring out facts and everything so my question
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you live in a different state so living in a different state where were you did how'd you learn what year did you learn
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about the yarnell fire that i was eyewitness on
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um i heard i didn't know anything about you
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of course and years ago i had dated uh
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forest service uh employee bless her heart and she uh i wasn't much into fire
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then although years previous and every now and then i'd do fire dozer i'd rtb 190
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um it would have been in the actually in the 94
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or 96 uh 97 around in there when the first time i ever did a car and i was
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ever out on fire so but um i wasn't very uh i mean i was serious about
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safety i understood what i was told i knew nothing about fire um rules command
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or uh really um too much about i knew what flanking
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was we were on a dozer team and they made sure that i understood procedures uh so
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you know almost 30 years ago i learned those um
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aspects um they're like the minimum right so but uh
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so your question was that what have i learned since i've met you guys or when was my first engagement so when did you
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learn about when did you learn about urinal hill fire like what what year yeah back in history i started dirty
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again so then uh how many years went by yarn out so my my late girlfriend from
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the port service had watched the uh i can't remember the yard the movie only
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the brave i didn't watch it um i think i did watch someone with her
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and i i'm a little kind of um i don't have never watched much tv
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and i'm a little sensitive things into certain things and uh funny big tough guy operator bulldozer
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and chainsaws and all this stuff but uh the uh i just couldn't i just uh when she i
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think she told me they all died and i couldn't watch it and i was pretty sad about that so but um that would have
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been the year or so when that video that movie came out um
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i learned about the 19 fatalities i didn't
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um so then it was some years until 2 17
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i had been re-engaged
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by fire uh in fire in an incident that i was um
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my hometown area and uh it was a it was there's a huge story
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behind that so but uh since then and even in between then fire and even
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uh where there's an incident i saw a helicopter unfortunately crashed during
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it was uh it's a hard thing but it was during the holidays and it was years ago and uh i
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called it into the dispatch and something in my mind told me that during the rainy holidays on that hill there's
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at night there's not somebody over there burning a brush pile and i had the radio on so but
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my fire radio site knew that there was maybe a chopper that they were going to be looking for or
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something was wrong but anyway so i uh i i was i kind of was always into trying
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to help out or do what i could for someone and and then 217 happened after
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that the that was a very tough end of the season in 217 for me we had
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lightning strikes before the tubbs uh fire and the mendo complex which was 217 so i had that winter or
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thereabouts actually even still with summer fire season left i looked at
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a video i had no idea was on the ground of mount 19.
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it was just the video said last uh transmissions
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from yarnell i believe it's one of the hardest tran it's one of the hardest radio transmissions for me to
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repetitively listen to yeah absolutely for me it was the first one that i ever saw i
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absolutely did not know that there was 19 paris in that incident i saw that
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so there was the two videos that are
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i would have no idea of the uh personnel name or or hotshot crew or
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whatever uh basin or what uh agency they were from but there was a short video
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shot it does have a follow-up video to it with the same guy
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he's got a like a gopro or a body cam so but he's hearing transmission i believe uh
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with and like i said i didn't know there was 19 guys so this turns out like i sent it to a
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friend that's a more experienced firefighter than me at that time and he was like wow that's kind of heavy
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for a sunday out here i'm playing with my kids and he goes man i'm like what do you mean it says that's the 19 guys died
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in that i'm like oh i had no idea and he goes you need to follow up on that so
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of course i did but here's the here's the original thing when i heard just i had no idea that the 19 guys that
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was that incident and this was live transmissions from there it said live transmissions from yarnell i had no
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clue what so when i heard the transmissions
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over that video the first video the guy then gets in his truck and drives to a closer location of the
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where i believe the gms gmh
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crew was and there was some other personnel there was evacuations going on and crews
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were pulling out so that video this little sequence and then that i heard the
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transmissions uh from who i believed now you know to be
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eric marsh i don't i have no real confirmation of that but so but anyway i
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did listen i've done some uh some deeper investigations and since i've met
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uh joy and and fred so but uh anyway my opinion is that but i'll leave that on
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for another day but uh so i heard and i could hear and i've been around and i've been logging and
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i've been done some um disaster relief work and i know the protocol of the radio it's it's
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make your transmission short clear and uh
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and uh precise and and i knew immediately
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that the tone of who i believed it you know whose voice that was uh
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was uh because being in some fires myself that when a
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guy calls for air support this is a
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very touchy subject in my world because uh myself i'm never going to call someone
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into after me in a bad situation and i know the one thing is is just i hate disappointment and i guarantee you
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that let me first and foremost again i don't believe in calling somebody into a bad
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situation my team nor my wingman um no matter the thing
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i could be in very bad danger but i believe in you know so uh
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so um that being said us as firefighters different um levels and positions
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many a time hot shots fuels crews
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um many many times they call for air they get it they're used to getting the air
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support they need they're used to they have a little time for it to get there it's going to take time they can't it
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doesn't always happen right then sometimes it takes a day to get if you're even lucky there what
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your swan shows up so anyway um but anyway i just i could tell the tone
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of his voice that he was
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without any other knowledge aside that i have now i could tell that that to me that sounds like a very experienced
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firefighter that was had bought with air before
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they it seemed to me like that they would know who he was they would know his tone of voice
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and that this guy is calling out prayer and he does it all the time this is what went
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through my head right then and there i was just i could feel the frustration coming from him
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into that radio immediately first that didn't even know they all died nothing i just this was my synopsis of that first
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time i ever saw those those two sequence video clips of the last transmissions of yarnell that's
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what it says on the on the youtube or however they're posted so but i i could definitely
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uh you know feel the uh uh so
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the very stressful tone of i could tell that he was definitely in
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need of air and uh none of us knew the situation at that time until the
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the video the the further transmissions came but uh
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that being said i remember that i was absolutely
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enraged that like i said just before i knew any knowledge of these man whatever
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happened at that incident i was just looking at this big i i was absolutely i seemed i was very
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almost enraged at that pace of air i see forgive me for saying i know that all we work together and that we need to
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respect but there i see when they told him you shout into the radio you need to be uh quiet
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or uh to stop i just i was just
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that like i said being said that i i could tell his tone of voice i could seem to me that he's experienced
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firefighter calling in eric where he does it all the time and he he was like man he needed them now
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and where are they he was a little bit probably disappointed himself i think uh
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for sure and i i think his intention whatever happened that that whole deal i
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think their intentions were good i i think that we need to and after review of what happened there's lessons to be
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learned of course and uh but i tend to be a little hypocritical of judgment on uh
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on those and that isn't it particularly just because you know uh
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just all incidents you know it's just uh it's a hard thing for me it's a hard thing for these people's families and uh
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for joy cleric fred and just everyone i think and that's why
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we found ourselves getting together on this or uh we have good intentions and uh i
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think it's a good thing that we're reviewing these things it's important and uh that you know
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that's the the why we you know the truth is important and everything and these are invaluable
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technologists that come from these incidents is that there's just absolutely no way we can place the value
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up on a human life or that knowledge
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and i stand behind that comment for through and through so but uh yeah i
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just it would have been in the 90s not a year
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or two after when i found when i saw those videos uh and uh
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my friend said hey that's pretty heavy and i started searching into it more and uh i did what he said you need to
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you need to go a little deeper on that and some of these incidents and familiarize yourself
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with what these videos have he uh he knew i was kind of you know i i
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i'm uh i knew some things about fire and i'm a great operator and i have a lot of
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experience with the machines um he he suggested i become more familiarized
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with the demand format and and some incidences because uh you know
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it's a we you know we don't sign on the dotted line to go out there and say hey i'm
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gonna die or risk me or my man for any particular purpose but we do sign on
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the dotted line even me as a contractor when i go to work for a contractor i don't have
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the license but when i sign all these insurances and the w uh it's called the i-9 there's a major
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medical not because bulldozers are more dangerous than uh helicopters now they're they're like the higher or as
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much or more to insure a bulldozer than a helicopter now so and for the man
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operator so uh that's because you guys are on the fire line though that where helicopters above
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you guys are on the fire line itself yeah there's a lot of times where you know guys get bragging about you know
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this and that but hotlining and firing off and stuff like that a lot of times the dozer is in the fire or one track in
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one track out it's kind of just to make that line and of containment is to uh
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going to be a clean line of dirt and you're shoving everything that's near the burning line uh in further to protect that line
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and uh it involves the dozer being very close proximity to fire and uh
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and i have stories uh or two times a couple times where i was on a
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machine with the no no environmental cloud cab or glass or
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ac and was asked to hotline and i did it and uh we had no
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no qualms about it i learned about that i don't want to really have to ever do it again without a cab
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i did observe that and uh um the headliner inside some of the
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dozers that uh they put or they didn't take out or was put in there too uh the newer dozers without glass they
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have a like a interior like a liner on the inside underneath the above your head
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underneath the roller protection on the on the seat on the roof of the the does are inside
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underneath so that'll catch on fire on you you won't be look expecting that and
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uh then what do you do when you got the you know the heat of battle going and guys around and they want you gotta keep
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going and or else you're gonna so but anyway that you get caught yourself so but
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it can be so a lot of experiences and stories i have so but the main thing is i think you know when did i learn about
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that and my you know maybe my point of view on it how has it affected me and stuff we may get into or not this time
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but it's a very indeed that particular incident so um is a very deep uh
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every time i i uh anyway i review even alone i i tend
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to shed a tear even every video every you know the one i just intends to because i i have to watch it twice
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because i just know that you know there was something in there i wanted or i didn't quite hear or i was busy or had
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the my radio fire radio on or something whatever i wanted
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i do watch them all of several times and uh
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the the gma the yarnell incident was just so yeah it was for me uh the eric's voice
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and uh not knowing i'll come with that incident at all until i sent it to a
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friend and he told me hey you know it's pretty um pretty deep uh
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incident and you should review it and then you should review some others and uh
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so but yeah that would have been way back when and then maybe 96.97 not uh
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to when did when was it when they perished in 2013.
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june 30th 2013. okay so what i was reviewing back then would have been
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the uh the basin fire so when i looked oh well let's go back well you probably would be
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the rodeo uh let's go back to 217. i kind of jumped
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the point because i was getting i get a little emotional so i did stayed in there in 217
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was that when i began to look at the lessons learned videos and i found the yarnell transmission so that was 217
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and uh that i began to be quite frequent at looking at the lessons learned videos
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um even i don't know more or less frequent since i met
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you and fred but at times more intense and even i will watch one video three
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times in a row and i do make notes i don't have notes on all of them uh god
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forbid there would be i'd write a couple of books but uh i i really pick out i really go indeed on each
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thing and the actions and uh what uh
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you know and it just it gets deep with me i i go into intentions and and uh
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what uh you know it just uh there's a lot to see so cur so currently
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currently there's an entity that feels that might putting out the documents
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and um putting it out for the wildland firefighter and aviation and and the eco
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was it the uh i didn't know how to say ecology students um in fire weather you know all
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those different types of people within fire um they it's it's interesting i'll get a
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phone call at two in the morning or a different time so like what the first time when you
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got onto the facebook and started hitting like like like that was a red flag because i'm so considered in the
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realm of controversial so when you hit like like like that was like what
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who's this person you know so what when did you learn did you learn it through youtube or
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facebook where did you learn about and did you learn about the desert walker or joycolor or the
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hikers the yarnell particularly or just the yarnell hikers how did well how did you learn about the
34:10
urinal okay so yeah so somewhere in there i've seen you guys you and sonny too i looked at that several times long
34:17
before i knew you and uh and oh and mainly that's when
34:25
uh there was a trigger point for me right there seeing you
34:30
both videos and then i immediately found right after i saw that the fire
34:36
chief i don't remember his name i believe he's a really good man pete anderson i think you mentioned he passed
34:41
away uh there was two videos of him on his front porch with uh daughtry and uh one
34:50
of those videos is now on locatable just flat is gone uh off
34:56
of whatever so i can't find it anymore but uh the one video that daughtry and the guy
35:02
the the retired uh fire chief uh what'd you say his name was again pete anderson
35:08
yeah mr anderson i believe he's true blue guy he knows all about the area i think he did a lot of good for when he
35:14
is he was uh being in active duty and fire i i i don't know
35:22
that i just think that from the way he talks um
35:28
to daughtry i think he's a he's a respectful man and i think he uh had some points of view
35:35
uh that were brought about uh that doctor he asked him about uh just kind of tipped him off the fire chief pretty
35:41
much went off on his own uh gone several points that uh you know his his point of view about what what
35:48
was going on um the before the the the bush had cursed
35:55
and i call them boys because like i don't know they're bros but i just there's it's sad to say too that you know your
36:00
point of view that they were young they were spent that was something just sticks
36:06
in my head but uh anyway yeah
36:13
anyway back to the topic i forgot now again i kind of get off on thinking man it's like when did you first even hear
36:19
about there being hikers up on the weaver mountains like when did you realize that when i saw the videos it
36:25
would have been around 217 when i was reviewing a friend of mine told me hey you need to look at the yarnell video
36:31
steve burgers 19 guys and all that so i during that time uh probably
36:37
in the two 18 winner and for sure more into the
36:43
218 fire season i had watched so but i'd say about 217
36:48
um and it may have still been fired before winter before fall when i i looked at
36:54
you guys both videos mr anderson's both videos that one of them is just disappeared now even on daughtry's uh
37:02
videos it's not there i've looked i've done all of doctor's videos so when you when you listen to the videos
37:09
[Music] it's been when how long since i met you since like 217 until i met you last year
37:18
but you met me september yeah september um the third week of september last year so i guess my question is because i'm
37:24
trying to figure out where the layer of harassment i'm trying to figure out the layers of harassment so then when an
37:30
entity says that i'm harassing so did you find the satsar any insert about the yarnell hikers did you find that to be
37:38
oh no not at all i felt actually that i could tell
37:44
uh when i said first review of those fires that you were your face was kind of flat red yeah i could tell that
37:50
definitely there was a woman there since she was upset uh and uh i don't think they gave you much of a
37:56
chance to talk either too by the way but uh i don't think sonny was necessarily
38:02
uh cutting you off but anyway it was kind of i think you felt that maybe questions
38:08
were directed at him and maybe you're too upset to talk or something but i think that you did have some things to add you did a good job at adding what
38:16
you what uh you were with the opportunity that you had um you did a very good job it was i think
38:22
tough for you to even uh uh would have been tough for me i know
38:27
especially what i know see a lot of people don't realize i i know more than i i know more than i speak to what joey
38:34
about this incident and even other incidents that i i i was impressed by i didn't know but did you find in that
38:40
video or any of the satsar that i was harassing wildland firefighters or can be taken
38:46
you even mentioned that it was a sad incident it was uh it was you felt i don't know exactly
38:52
your point now you said it was sad uh i know you displayed compassion uh without a doubt and uh even sunny and
39:01
it was just your question was is why joy do you help the media and your answer
39:07
was that you know i feel that there's truths that are going to come out and people are kind of winging their version
39:13
of what happened they don't they weren't even here they don't really know and and your concern was that uh
39:19
you know that we need to learn from that and we don't want this to happen again uh you didn't say that in the video i do
39:25
believe that was your intended thing you did make a good powerful statement in that
39:31
people are waxing their wing in it with their opinion and they don't know and there's
39:38
basically a lot to this this story yeah and on the blog i have um documented
39:44
documents over time which is so much information and if you don't know anything about the fire it's really hard
39:51
to go there because it's like a lot of data
39:57
yeah there's just so much data but but wait wait wait let me finish so a lot of
40:02
people don't understand that blogged enjoys eyes is just a brainstorm of
40:07
drafts that i have behind the scenes that will come out later on it's just a brainstorm because fred wants it to be
40:14
fluid and and up-to-date and current and so he wants me to participate but i have
40:20
a hard time so my drafts so that the way i look at it my giraffes
40:25
are in a different mode i keep them there until i'm ready to put them all out and and
40:30
it's solidified because once it's out the dominoes fall and the story everything's out where fred he likes
40:38
you're kind of easing into the thing with kind of yeah well i'm not i'm not i'm not a part of the blog quite yet i i
40:46
know fred wants me to be a participant since 2018 same with dr leroy anderson
40:51
they wanted me to participate right and i'm not ready that yet i'm i'm still
40:56
in draft form with my stuff um i do a live journal and then what fred he likes
41:02
to talk about fire weather because he's a fire weather nerd and and he wants to do a new type of lessons learned since he
41:08
kind of got faded out on the other one that he was one of the original people that started it so um but i'm trying to
41:15
figure out how anybody back channel can even state that
41:20
i was being harassing because the only history i have a dozer guy is um i had a prior history with one
41:27
of the widows and i thought that all kind of faded off and everything and i was in good communications with uh
41:33
eric's parents uh it was it's actually been a real hard thing to lose jane for me because uh to me she was comedic she
41:40
was a beautiful soul i loved interacting with her uh so i miss her
41:46
eric's father yeah and she died last november and so uh to have her this last
41:51
june 30th um it was a great loss uh in my world because they yeah i remember
41:58
you you said how sad you were and then you were friends and there was some mutual
42:03
yeah yeah and so for me that was the only feeling towards you at all they uh praised you
42:10
for being well they just respected me and so and um and on the aftermath
42:16
though um it was really hard because i know that it's a big loss for um john and and
42:22
that's uh he's also another big uh part of my heart uh in the aftermath because of the respect we've shown each other
42:28
back and forth and just to be able to have normal conversations outside of the fire you know simple like condiments from
42:35
texas and stuff like that so but the thing is i'm going back to 2015 when all
42:41
that took place um at that that the only people who have ever been a
42:46
thorn um and tried to cause kind of chaos um or create or orchestrate was
42:53
the situation where amanda felt in her grieving process that's where she was at
42:58
fingston and her grieving process that's where she was at but the curious thing for me i'm just making a comment is that
43:05
willis was always being the family advocate for the families and
43:10
stuff like that but i've met a lot of the family members over time and they just want
43:16
peace they want to be able to move forward not reopen the
43:22
wound and learning and when i showed the evidence this year to some family members
43:27
that to see that um they knew something was not right from the very get-go and
43:33
their gut instinct so um but i just like i'm trying to scratch my head why this
43:38
person would say that i was harassing um other wildland firefighters and i
43:44
haven't i have not had any person now when you see the blog fred does speak
43:49
about the lessons learned center and he has a long history with the lessons learned centers and
43:55
he's one of the original people that's so i have spent so much time watching those videos uh yeah he he had an old
44:03
he had an old truck and he drove all his he had fred is besides myself fred sheffler is one of
44:10
the most documented person and he had the evidence and documents and he took
44:15
his old truck and put all those banker boxes and brought it down to tucson and gave him all the evidence and
44:22
documentation so they can create the lessons learned center with documentation because back then there was no digital thing like you see
44:28
nowadays so when you think about it how god has put me because i clash with fred
44:34
because he has a very dominant like he's very um i don't say dictator but he has a very
44:40
he's he's and he's the boss and his way or the highway yeah that's how i see fred but
44:45
yeah but he's a good man he's kind of he probably feels in his own mind he's
44:51
earned the right to uh kind of uh step uh on or over people but uh anyway i say
44:56
he's very likable man i think he's been given even what you just told me
45:01
i didn't know right with what i didn't know i would say that i think he's given a great deal to wildland fire his his
45:08
intentions are totally truly good and uh so i don't know like even when i like
45:15
have a clash with him and i'll say hey dr ted putman's working on the man gulch
45:20
and he's like you know we're working on an article i'm afraid it's like a book you mean and i'm like no an article
45:25
that's his thoughts his you know thing but when i talked to dr ted putman
45:30
he stated a long time ago for him to get involved with the yarnell hill fire
45:36
it takes all people to tell the truth like you can't go and do an investigation when there's untruths
45:43
being shared or omissions and stuff so he's never had taken an interest so when fred is writing about dr ted or any kind
45:50
of association affiliation ted never dr ted has never
45:56
authorized us to speak about him write about him but so papers get tied to it because
46:02
fred mentions it and i'd say hey fred don't write it or refrain from writing about dr ted because he didn't give you
46:09
permission and yet he would say well that's public yeah and then you say that's part
46:15
so he'd say that's public information i'm writing what i want and i know freedom of speech and i said i get you
46:21
but in respect i this is me i'm not a high school educated even
46:27
apologize to interrupt but to uh in respect of to where we are who and we are quoting or where our
46:33
knowledge came from in respectable form it's it i believe we are supposed to put their
46:40
name in quote thank you and even if we don't have their exact word for word
46:46
it is in yeah the respectable form would be to quote this man it's not that i'm the guy
46:54
that just because how many times have you and i talked about in the past that um people
46:59
have used our stuff and never gave us credit i mean that's happened to both of us and and so when i'm telling fred just
47:06
refrain from using dr ted in any fashion unless you got written permission or verbal permission but he just says we
47:12
have the freedom of speech it's public information and so it's one of the things that me going forward i have such
47:19
a deep deep respect for dr ted for what he did on the south canyon and now that had to take a lot of courageous move for
47:27
him to do that and to see the shift happen after that and and now he's
47:32
retired and i just didn't like how it hit the shift happened to his life professionally you know so
47:39
um but um dr ted putman and fred shuffler are probably one of the top people who um i
47:46
would ever recommend for people to speak to um yeah i'm here
47:52
hello yeah i'm here your phone just started tripping out oh wow it's probably
47:58
some weird thing going on but it was just beef inside in here so but i didn't all i know i didn't i i liked ted but i
48:06
mean i don't know much he's more for he's far more he's more for mindful meditation and and being
48:12
very mindful of your thoughts and and um he takes it into an an area that you can
48:18
kind of get and where fred's more of the fires he does the one-on-one says autopilot is bad and being complacent is
48:25
bad i think he does a video on that and i do agree with what his pov on on everything is
48:31
but it's so important for me because i'm just a housewife who's been certified really high up in the industry and i got
48:38
um emerging leadership and you did your problem good for you and you've been doing right
48:45
and it's never yeah it's never about ego it's never about ego the emerging leader
48:51
you know fire and climate whatever i'm it's never about ego it's just to get to be people to understand that once these
48:58
people pass on in a few decades or so um we need to carry those on those are legendary people um and
49:05
they're all right valuable knowledge yeah and so
49:11
i think that it making you know i'm trying to bridge uh dr ted and fred but
49:18
it's a very difficult path because you know prior times um he
49:23
fred has spoken or outspoken on areas that were back channel conversations and
49:28
so it's like not an easy path but i i think if anybody
49:34
yeah well it's no no it's not that they don't get along because dr ted is the most calm spirit you'll ever meet it's
49:40
the um yeah it's just the respect of like when someone put something in publication it
49:47
should be totally reviewed by dr ted and okayed by dr ted before it's out in
49:52
publication and so that's where i i think if i could ever recommend a lot of
49:58
respect for his qualifications and his his point of view is what you're saying and uh yeah i would say i would agree he's a
50:05
very thorough and uh he's has a different uh kind of aspect
50:10
on the whole thing he goes very deep into the psyche and emotion thinks that uh
50:17
very interesting uh and necessary points well what a lot
50:23
of people don't understand too is my mentors were like um my mentors who have
50:28
been given to me from the wildland fire industry are people that were on the yarnell fire or part of the
50:34
investigation or uh just a lot of decades in fire and stuff
50:40
and i have been told that my tenacity of keep going and not just like giving up
50:46
and stuff i'm here for the living you told me you were gonna i always gave
50:51
you in but that's good that others i think mean way more than what i could ever say because they were more
50:58
significant the events no i think that that that's great i was
51:03
very impressed to see that finally you were showing you were like one day oh no and eric's mother and uh you were and i
51:10
was like so glad that uh maybe joy could rest or swipe or sweat off her brow for just because
51:17
finally people are like oh no we got your back you know even if they weren't just direct whatever it is they are
51:23
letting you know that they're we're out there and that we believe in you and even to me that's what it was even if
51:30
they didn't say it that's personally how i myself i felt i believe in you and i thought yeah yeah and i think what
51:36
people don't realize is uh my forensic weather uh background is so
51:41
advanced that um when i go to a point of origin
51:47
no not because of fred actually i've hi i've really i have really high up military people that have taught me um
51:54
and so uh yeah and so what's amazing though in that is i can go to the point of origin
52:00
which does not always match to what's reported out and then the progression and the burn scar so what i dissed i'm
52:06
in idaho and i went to look at the burn scar of the beaver creek fire so if you remember the beaver creek fire back in
52:13
the same year as my yarnell fire but it happened in august they
52:18
that was uh that was just colorado no right here in idaho
52:24
oh i know i'm sorry no yeah yeah i know all about that fire the fire cue i got the
52:29
the uh i got i watched those videos too and i that guy was pretty emotional about his man
52:34
and accountability well what would i do i want none of my units in that ranch he
52:40
said on that video beaver creek yeah and so what i do is not just the point of origin the progression and the burn scar
52:47
i go and talk to all the locals and i learn um different sections of and i
52:52
really focus to where the retardant is placed on live fire and if it's been if retardant like on the cables rx in the
52:59
watershed or over here in idaho they was done on the marsh wetlands and and if
53:06
you put my whole goal is not to be looked at as harassing wildland
53:12
firefighters but my whole goal is to make sure that the slurry drop industry the
53:17
retardant the foss check that they someday do a study in the missoula labs
53:22
or work some kind of lab and they put the high temperatures to that retardant and see the what happens because i have
53:29
enough photos of people who have died i've been to so many funeral funerals and i'm i'm expecting that that the
53:37
companies and this side not to intersect with your knowledge but the companies and just
53:43
because i grew up in agriculture they generally uh the big the um
53:49
corporate company they generally know the dangers um they don't uh publicize it though it's
53:57
not on the thing like with this stuff physicalized it toxic if it's burned or if you touch your skin with it although
54:03
i had said praised some uh when they're using retardant and water trucks and all this
54:09
and i had a guy on the ic of the dixie i don't know his name can't remember it i think he was right
54:15
he says oh no because i said oh yeah well every tanker truck should have this and be able to be retardant compatible
54:22
and this guy from the ic pops up hey man what are you know kind of basically said
54:27
like you don't know you're talking about that stuff dangerous and we we told we did we absolutely stopped them
54:32
from using that and i'm like well we drove through tons of places where there weren't or several places that weren't
54:39
burnt on the way to the dozer every day and they all had retardants sprayed in
54:44
there he goes well that might be but he goes that stuff when it rains or when you get it on you and on and on and he
54:50
sent me i probably still i i don't know if he sent me the he did
54:56
he put the warning labels on the thing it was on a national or a pit yeah he was on a wildland fire website facebook
55:02
and he posted right off the bat a bang bang bang especially when it hits live fire it
55:08
changes the whole chemical compound when it hits extreme heat live fire and that's my whole goal
55:14
they're just not gonna since they're using it next to fire they're not gonna tell you that i
55:20
and then when it comes to the slurry drop i have a high standard i don't want to be associated affiliated with anybody
55:25
that's with the slurry drop uh companies uh until they do the difficult right thing and then they sit with me and i
55:32
show him and them the countless photos of the external tumors that we've had to
55:38
bury um and and the types of deaths and the horrific deaths that we had i i
55:44
think that's my main thing and i get tired of hearing over and over the little whispers behind the scenes of oh
55:50
joy's harassing the wildland firefighters and uh we're just making a documentation we want a paper trail
55:57
you know saying that is just um even though you're living one thing in life too and i know this is off
56:04
subject but no matter how good or bad we might be there's always going to be somebody and even probably more so the
56:11
better that we are or try to be come the more people that are going to be
56:17
naysaying or have something to a big stink so in that being said that thus believers
56:24
that are grounded on this earth and and we we believe in truth um
56:29
you know they're it's i have never once in all my stu and i have maybe not looked at every square
56:36
centimeter of your data but i have looked and i have skimmed through if not every square inch and i've never seen
56:43
and i never even assumed came to mind that it was a that there
56:48
were a joy hated wildland firefighters or anyone in firefighter or any individual person
56:54
in any incident there was not even an occurrence in my brain that that's no
57:00
not no i don't whoever's whoever's saying well you know that's just going to be part of
57:05
the game even if we're doing great you know charity for the record whatever if they're going to
57:10
say oh he or she did this and that's just part of the game um how it's the biggest thing that i've found and i'm
57:16
not this great that great at this is but how do we respond to things
57:21
whatever it is good or bad so that's what um are the biggest uh
57:30
the most important thing is so they could say but they could say whatever joy and i'm
57:35
not gonna say i'm the lawyer i'm god i'm gonna defend you but just from what i know of you joy and whatever your
57:40
intentions are totally have always been what our every conversation has been
57:46
about is firebase and i've never and i've never came to mind once that what does come to mind is i
57:53
wonder why joyce doing this and why whatever and then um i think uh actually joey and i had a conversation
57:59
or two about that and she even came became upset once at me because uh she had just told me some things that uh
58:07
maybe i did i was listening but i didn't remember and she uh reassured that she told me those things and she was very
58:13
upset she had every right to be and it reassures my my uh
58:18
there's no suspicion but it just reassures that my question that what's
58:23
joy or fred or who's sonny whatever their intentions are about this incident and even other incidences
58:30
and also remember if they're dying and also when um you think about it you
58:37
can't call dr ted anytime and you can't even call fred shuffler any time but any time you can call me and we could talk
58:44
things through if i end if i'm tired or moody i tell you hey it's not a good time and then you'll know there's been a
58:51
few times when we were either one of us was tired of moody but oh i've never had the thought of that you were harassing
58:57
or picking on it so whoever's saying that is we should spend time otherwise
59:04
i just feel like they're not taking the time to learn me and then they're just going along to get along
59:09
there's someone out there there's more than one of them that are they're just opposing they're like an opposing you
59:16
know there's the thing of good and evil and it does exist and i'm not going to get into all these things but there's
59:23
always going to be and especially when someone's trying to
59:28
you know promote a certain thing or do good do right by others and it doesn't always mean that
59:34
someone had died or who whatever their defense is or their their justifiable
59:39
you know thing in their head or whatever it just it's gonna so but in this incident in
59:46
this subject it is a very sub uh sensitive who knows who it could be could be a million people that are
59:51
saying i enjoy this that or she's she's like disturbing or hating on the
59:56
wildland but you know um i many of us i think that know you joy that or
1:00:02
would say that that's an absurd uh inclination to uh say to you or to accuse you or
1:00:08
uh whatever uh towards uh whatever because you've done like tons of work
1:00:14
and until you don't get paid for it until your heart's like in you and you're just in the same like hey man you
1:00:19
know and yeah i mean to me i think joy of just
1:00:25
a personal point of view it's just uh i you know and i could be way off but i
1:00:30
think it's just in my belief as i just would like to think that joyce he probably loves
1:00:37
everybody and wildland firefighters included and uh probably long before
1:00:43
um the grand amount incident came she was just a loving person caring and she happened to see this thing
1:00:50
and the facts are um anybody that knew me before the fire is i'm every 10 day person
1:00:56
yeah i might you could have seen a plane wreck or whatever it was and you're kind of going to be the person that's like
1:01:02
hey you know dude like this kind of affected me away and like really the truth is is like what happened to you by
1:01:09
the way like all you you people that are in africa you know followers of whatever
1:01:15
you know uh you know like i don't know they often flew over the
1:01:20
moon or whatever you know there's the real facts here and if you really care to find them i'm here
1:01:26
this is by the way important to me that's what you're saying well yeah not only that like last year i i holly neal
1:01:33
uh holly henderson snyder neal is doing was doing
1:01:38
a book with uh john mclean he announced this year he's backed out but um i could
1:01:43
tell you this that um i didn't know wildland firefighter
1:01:48
foundation at all she's the one that told me about it and gary l olsen told me about it and their perceptions and i
1:01:55
was like okay but never i looked him up like apple pie mom didn't really think anything of it moved on you know my goal
1:02:02
is like when rick connell is looking for an f-band for the nr team team four i'm actually on the ground helping people
1:02:09
that need help you know or if the dispatch needs something i'm more like trying to bridge people
1:02:17
and then the other thing is logistics and then webinars and then the uh
1:02:23
oh what was the other one the uh uh there's a uh not ted button but the other guy but
1:02:28
there's a car there's a uh gray area called uh
1:02:34
heuristics which is the uh the area the gray between command and uh the boots on
1:02:40
the ground but i'm probably going off subject again but joy and fred inspired me even
1:02:46
joy more to uh to try to be smarter than her about these things because she's she has the
1:02:52
she's been a wizard at looking at all these things and she has the better computer i just got a phone and i don't
1:02:59
have a lot of time and she's uh but i don't think i've ever become but she's brought it's been almost like a gay or a
1:03:06
race for us to have something new or exciting or that uh for sure both of us
1:03:11
have the same or end up having the same or very similar points of view on uh
1:03:17
reviewing things so i kind of been very and you said that i was like um a nice
1:03:23
person or whatever i actually did all this in the beginning because i had a family member that was um
1:03:29
having a situation that i didn't want to be my i didn't want my name public i was a very private person before yarnell
1:03:36
fire you can ask the uh either librarian and yarnell or congress you can go there and they'll say you know she's a very
1:03:42
private person and i was i did my desert walking and stuff and i really was for the wildlife to watch and bury all the
1:03:50
wildlife that i did that was really probably the hardest moment in my life was burying as many wildlife i did and i
1:03:57
know you have a connection to wildlife too um because you have almost a very very
1:04:03
very uh yeah it's a it's a it's a it's
1:04:09
yeah that's a very um it just it it's a very painful thing and uh have
1:04:16
to look at more than one and then to have to if you're out there you know saying a little prayer and bury
1:04:22
him and trying to do what you know your morals the right thing is um yeah that you know and the whole fire
1:04:29
thing and with your knowledge uh it's uh yeah animals are
1:04:34
you know just in many ways out in the desert in the wilderness that you know it's the same as a human life or should
1:04:41
just be you know considered almost it's not the same but but don't you think like we can interact with when we cut we
1:04:47
cut each other off but we respect that we understand each other that way we overlap our talks but don't you think
1:04:53
like we could go on any topic maybe personal professional and like just uh in the past week uh do you remember the
1:05:00
oklahoma fire entrapment on the dozer
1:05:05
did i would there would yeah it was it's called the 720 fire and
1:05:12
so when i went to the investigation uh course and then i learned the
1:05:17
crp and all the different things they have a 72-hour report if you go to lessons learn center
1:05:22
um they have a the 72-hour report i look at what's not shown
1:05:28
and i didn't okay but it's a it's a it was an initial attack entrapment on oklahoma 720 fire
1:05:37
and it just happened i think uh july 16th and it was a heavy equipment dozer and i and i i think what's nice is that
1:05:44
i'm just going back and forth um because i think people don't even understand uh the amazing thank you for
1:05:52
your service um for what you do because the dozer guy i think is very crucial
1:05:57
and um and i have somebody that was my instructor this year because i went to heavy equipment those are boss tom
1:06:02
morgan and he's retired but he's he's still in it he's um playing in different states to um keep it going and flowing
1:06:09
and i just have such a respect for that area because they're probably hear about hot shots you hear about
1:06:15
smoke jumpers but you really don't hear it's a lot a lot yeah right not a lot of people know much
1:06:21
about the equipment guys or bulldozers or what what it is even a bulldozer does
1:06:28
to uh to be uh you know uh effective or to assist the fire
1:06:35
personnel and uh so and even cal fire four serves they have their own bulldozers but uh
1:06:41
if they're not generally uh they usually put one bulldozer
1:06:47
at each you know agency or base but actually
1:06:52
let me back that up there would be a certain agency that would have either bulldoze
1:06:58
or helicopter available they're very expensive both of those and then not to mix up all those without but so not that
1:07:05
yeah bulldozers are not super readily always available through the agencies and that's when um the
1:07:14
contractor guys that i work for and where my knowledge and everything stems from is the contractor in so but
1:07:21
yep nobody knows what we do uh generally and they think a bulldozer maybe is like a tank and can
1:07:27
take bullets and fire and it's indestructible and it can climb over a tree or whatever
1:07:32
but those it's bulldozers awesome machine it's a very capable of doing a lot of things but it's not by far
1:07:39
indestructible it's not bulletproof and uh it it can uh become disabled or shut off
1:07:45
in the middle of a bad uh fire or a hot zone you know where uh
1:07:50
you're seeking refuge inside your dozer uh because you're you're anticipating a
1:07:56
burnover so the the dozers are not a bail proof thing that when we're in inside them and
1:08:02
they they can't do everything and they won't climb a tree but the operators have to be somewhat of a
1:08:09
unique individual to do the top rated bulldozer many of us
1:08:14
some of us are over proud but it's a different machine than anything else you have diggers that like a back or an
1:08:20
excavator that primarily digs they put grinders on excavators now that can like
1:08:25
grind down a whole tree fairly big tree you know two and a half foot in diameter which you know these granite
1:08:32
so those are a different machine and then you have skidders or skidgens that which
1:08:39
is a scooter machine made for type of type machine for pulling timber and
1:08:45
they've modified it and put a pumper device on the back with a tank and so they call it skidgen and then there's
1:08:51
also a track version of this kitchen but those are a very effective awesome tool
1:08:56
i also believe in bumper uh dozers where they're equipped with a similar pump water device on them but
1:09:04
they're not very commonplace uh i think that they're effective they should be way more commonplace
1:09:09
um but anyway that's my t there's the dozer is a different entity it's on tracks
1:09:14
it's a it rides her up it beats your back it's taxing mentally uh tends to trigger a level of
1:09:22
adrenaline uh primarily visibility is not very good
1:09:27
you're on in our uh region five out in the northwest it's
1:09:33
conditions can be very very um dangerous
1:09:38
invisible is very limited and there's very steep grades and trees and stumps
1:09:44
and rocks that can affect how the dozer moves it can uh
1:09:49
can't tip the dozer over it can uh it leads to uh there's a lot of
1:09:54
obstacles that can be misjudged on uh as a dozer operator
1:10:00
uh you can be very close to the edge a lot of times all day maybe for a day or two or night you're
1:10:05
clear-cutting near the edge you're as you're cutting a road essentially the edge is
1:10:11
the the one cornier blade where you may have a 300 footed drop or or still considerable danger
1:10:18
even if it's 30 40 feet and so things are they can the bulldozer is a cool tool is
1:10:24
what it does it's of course dangerous and all of what i said but it gives access for
1:10:30
the fire personnel to get in either direct or to flank the fire and to become at anchor uh have an anchor
1:10:38
point and if it's not there's not already one established and there there's not an old road or access to the fire
1:10:46
dozers make the road and uh they also work hotlining
1:10:52
where there's gonna be a motion made
1:10:57
to uh burn into the interior of the fire either because of a inaccessibility or
1:11:03
whatever the danger the the toilet danger whatever it is so uh the bulldozer will actually have a man
1:11:10
with a torch lighting behind the dozer line which is a bare mineral dirt
1:11:16
and um yeah you get on the the inclines in the ground here we have slop over next thing
1:11:23
you know you got everything's going good some burning material rolls on the other side of your dozer line where there is
1:11:29
debris that has been removed from the dozer line and put over there now you have fire over there
1:11:35
and so there's a lot to watch out for a good dozer operator watches his swap over he can't control everything and
1:11:42
steep ground um we have eyes on the ground hopefully let us know you got some flop over the crew can't catch it
1:11:48
can you come back but there's we're work right here or in the fire times and uh
1:11:55
there's a lot that we do there's special assignments we got to build a place for the water truck to get down in there we
1:12:00
can't make it the road needs fixed um burning snags there's danger of trees
1:12:07
hazard trees that the safest thing to to put a man there to deal with that is inside a cage
1:12:14
bulldozer you wouldn't want a guy walking up to a certain situation with a chainsaw and
1:12:19
thinking that he was going to be have luck or be effective at removing that hazard because it'd
1:12:24
probably kill him so a lot of times the dozers we chase spots we there's like a very versatile tool
1:12:30
there's some of the best things i've ever seen the most a row of things in my mind is that we're none of us are heroes
1:12:36
out there i just say that uh that's kind of the kid in me and i my brother was a firefighter
1:12:42
and i didn't really like him but he was kind of hero and these guys i think some of them are
1:12:47
it's easy to say that but nobody's heroes out there in wildland fire we're all we protect each other and uh
1:12:53
that's that so but the dozers have done awesome things and and in the paradise fire they made
1:12:59
access by uh an eminent dangerous situation where people were trapped in
1:13:05
or near a hospital even with a sheriff personnel with body cam
1:13:12
it was just the most of amazing thing i ever seen it was very emotional when i saw it i didn't even see before i even
1:13:18
saw what's happening i heard the dozer tracks on the pavement third gear clicking faster than i've ever heard a
1:13:25
pair of something and there was people that needed help and
1:13:31
that dozer was operated by joe kennedy at the paradise fire rant uh campfire and uh he had to push for miles
1:13:38
uh through very dangerous situation chef cars out of the way trees
1:13:43
and had i believe support two fire type three engines behind him and that he made his way
1:13:50
voluntarily essentially just uh decided it was time let's go uh to
1:13:56
the hospital and make our way he pushed a valiantly
1:14:01
did towards that uh dodge location and did get some people in his bulldozer some
1:14:07
women and a police officer they were rescued also the type trees behind him
1:14:13
we're able to make it in and it was it was caught on film as a very uh it just sticks in my uh
1:14:21
it was just amazing so but their dozers are cool man we got we're firefighters too uh when they call us
1:14:29
we put the clothes on and uh we got a good heart and sometimes we're
1:14:34
known to go even a little farther than normal for uh fire protocol and uh but
1:14:40
i'm not trying to say like you know anything but just there's been some of us and there's a lot of stories out there that we're just contractors we're
1:14:46
just regular not uh full time fire personnel and we've done and
1:14:51
i've seen it and just the same for for for agency personnel and forest service personnel i've seen just amazing
1:14:58
things uh bravery that uh so we're all out there together but uh yeah bulldozers and contractor
1:15:05
dudes we're cool too and uh we we protect the public and we definitely care
1:15:10
and that's kind of just the things that dozer does it's a cool thing
1:15:15
do you think i'm being that you're not a hot shot or a firefighter or a smokejumper does the fuels weather
1:15:22
topography and fire behavior differ for you as a dozer guy on-call firefighter
1:15:27
you gotta change that part but yeah is that the weather topography not what does fuels weather topography and fire
1:15:33
behavior differ from your point of view than like say the smoke jumper or hot shot or does it have a different oh it
1:15:41
did once i met you and fred i don't i don't think anymore i'd like to say it doesn't differ very far maybe they have a little
1:15:49
more in-depth um insight into how to gain that knowledge or how to uh because i don't
1:15:54
know how to work a kestrel or a weather uh monitoring kit yet i intend to get at least the belt weather
1:16:01
kit that goes on your belt they call it the belt weather kit so but uh i don't
1:16:06
know if that does rh and all the wind or it does do r8 but not the wind i would
1:16:11
like to uh but so yeah um i would think i'm right up there with
1:16:17
that now uh before i met you guys and especially i wasn't even up you know i knew about
1:16:23
the weather i've been in a fire incident where a hundred miles an hour winds with fire um
1:16:30
i i was always concerned about the weather i didn't have
1:16:35
really a clue about how to gain intel about the weather how to uh
1:16:40
anticipate uh a weather front oh and those things are very very
1:16:48
important eminently important to our like your light your crew and everyone on the fire
1:16:53
yeah and i didn't never saw the fred was kind of him calling me a
1:16:59
snowflake or a well you only missed one fire order like
1:17:05
it was it was just the wording well i think any i think it even wasn't even really the fireworks which i'm not
1:17:12
totally uh in tune with everyone and can can read them it was an lces thing oh
1:17:18
yeah yeah and i i forgot the uh i forgot the uh no it was the lookout remember
1:17:24
it was it was actually now we can it was it can be a huge laughing matter because uh but because we're not on a fire and i
1:17:31
wasn't uh i wasn't as far performing so but anyway yeah you
1:17:37
know and i've had that happen before on a fire and the guy asked me you you at least recite the lces to me and tell me
1:17:43
what your knowledge is of the uh because he knew i was green or somebody said that oh that guy and he don't know
1:17:49
nothing and that dozer boss asked me before we go any further oh yeah i came i was like
1:17:54
and my kind of one of my buddies was down there he knew all about fire and he goes hey go easy on him man
1:18:00
those are boss it was i can't remember his name but he's a great guy and he he he he made sure that i knew
1:18:06
that his concern was is what i knew
1:18:12
and that is his job he wasn't trying to be a you know uh in subordination or be
1:18:17
up for brass and the whole thing like that it was no act he was absolutely concerned about my conscious
1:18:24
level and what my knowledge was and he wanted to know what that was and that's fine it's you know and i had fire
1:18:30
experience and all this sort of stuff but for some reason or another me being the new guy on that vet starving team
1:18:35
i'd never been on a vet strike team he wanted to usually when you're um as a dozer guy
1:18:43
and you're on the wildland fire suppression initial attack and it's like approximately maybe 10 000 acres and you
1:18:49
go and check in and everything uh do you feel that
1:18:57
initial attack never be on a 10 000 acre fire would be like i'm you know just start of a fire could be 10 acres or 100
1:19:03
but 10 000 acres like when that's when that would not be initial attack maybe
1:19:10
our initial attack on the fire or maybe you meant to say a direct attack on a fire
1:19:16
well say the fire size is not um their admission is a wildland fire suppression initial attack and the fire size is nine
1:19:23
thousand seven hundred ninety eight acres so that's gonna addition that's gonna be a direct um tactic and yeah okay i got you okay
1:19:31
i'm sorry so say that um because if you if you know
1:19:36
oklahoma uh in that terrain it's mainly um how would you
1:19:42
say that is kind of oklahoma yes this could be i believe
1:19:48
maybe wooded swampy and but for the most part maybe not too much hills or mountains
1:19:53
and maybe some rocks but uh i uh you know oklahoma does go into the
1:19:59
ozarks in texas i believe so there is a could be considerably pieces of oklahoma
1:20:06
that you know um nowhere we fight fire even though it may seem and even look
1:20:11
from a camera is there like no dangerous burnable
1:20:18
material even the light flashy fuels five inches of grass dead grass
1:20:24
those those are the most awesome most often underestimated
1:20:30
and very often potato when i was in oklahoma it was mostly
1:20:36
like heavy patches of um red cedar and uh brush you know it was like shrubs yeah some speeders yeah okay
1:20:43
cedar's like highly resistant to fire from what i know but i don't know about red cedar
1:20:49
yeah it's like the eastern red cedar too it's not just like cedar it's different and so like i would imagine
1:20:56
they have highly volatile fuels in many types just like anywhere around the world there's some of the fuels that
1:21:03
are extremely volatile once that they're lit it's uh like sonny says in the video that stuff like goes like oil yeah
1:21:09
there's yeah that's what i'm saying and do you remember like the past week we had a huge across the united states the
1:21:17
weather was over 100 degrees in so many different areas it's gonna stay that way it's still that way here
1:21:23
and the rh the rh was like 25 and the winds the the winds have been
1:21:29
soaked was that low but yeah and then they rarely even say
1:21:35
unless you really dive into looking for something they don't ever report to rh but uh yeah and the winds have been
1:21:41
really squirrely across the united states the winds have been squirrely and
1:21:46
so it just really like you think about it there hasn't been much rain in a lot
1:21:51
of places and stuff like that and states throughout the um states you're
1:21:56
right it's absolutely been in drought uh
1:22:02
droughts uh for ia drought for several states um for five years some even longer we've
1:22:10
been uh declared drought so you know lakes are drying up all our lake air dry you know oh yeah for real total drought
1:22:16
for real state of emergency yep but if there's like only um i guess my
1:22:21
question is if there's only 10 hour fuel and with the moisture at five percent i
1:22:27
just don't understand how we even have entrapments on a dozer i just don't get it like how how does uh well
1:22:34
i got something now i gotta this is i gotta adjust some numbers in my head here so now so we had there was a
1:22:42
the 20 you were saying how many hour fields would this guy tear us in yeah he didn't it's a entrapment
1:22:49
avoidance type thing so and it happened on the 16th of july and in in
1:22:54
the um we had the fine dead fuels that was down and at the time of the incident it was
1:22:59
only four percent um and then 10 hour fuel
1:23:05
moisture was five percent so you're fine for your fine dead your fine dead fuels was four percent
1:23:13
and then your fuel moisture was five percent okay those are both like i can't even
1:23:18
get a grasp on those numbers because they're so nice it's like so volatile like a piece of paper to me right
1:23:26
so then then then they when it pop they spread and then they spread about 220
1:23:31
chains per hour which is like what three miles an hour
1:23:37
um i'm not sure that yeah i'm not really super good at identifying the chains and miles per hour but but the flame lengths
1:23:43
didn't even reach 26 feet they were not that big it still doesn't even matter it could be
1:23:49
two foot high flames it could get you you're looking at like this is my pov on the whole deal like i
1:23:55
know in the what's that one fire called the uh they're out running it and they're they're they're keep saying oh no we
1:24:02
were burning our hands were looked like candle wax and that that was that fire i told you
1:24:07
man what's that one i count it's a three no
1:24:13
i can't remember now i i sent it to you and it's uh oh
1:24:18
but i mean would you consider that a an entrapment um
1:24:24
i mean you got open land here's the thing and it says right and thing like flashy fools are often the
1:24:30
most deceiving and many can be very fatal and here's the thing so what rule number one this is just like without me
1:24:37
even knowing anything about fire i know that or other than just like i've had doing a burn plot or whatever number
1:24:44
rule number one um you can become absolutely within seconds smoke blind
1:24:50
and lose your vision because your eyes are burning they nowhere mentions this your eyes are burning
1:24:57
unreal so first thing if you're in trouble you just got more trouble you're blind
1:25:03
when the vision will return who knows how smart can you be after that i don't and then the number two
1:25:10
noxious fumes number three what type of heat you're talking
1:25:17
it's called not radiant with the convective heat so
1:25:24
those are bam i don't without reading anybody's rule whatever that i know
1:25:30
through common sense and through learning fire protocol and rule
1:25:36
that those three no matter who says what those three are the old the ultimate
1:25:41
one that's going to grab that's going to kill you other even long before that there's many
1:25:47
other things involving preparation and anticipating weather and fire behavior
1:25:54
and direction of the head of that fire so which everybody knows
1:26:00
it it just it happens like that so how the hell spreading them they were sitting up on some hill and they had a
1:26:05
good vantage point and they're smarter than average guy or whatever but you know just got out of school or what the hell ever but that guy fred he
1:26:12
he did it you know i can't i gotta say he's i i may but he i he he becomes more a
1:26:20
likable man in my you know and just because i've looked at that video and but they had a good
1:26:26
so he just made that call but uh it just happened so fast it doesn't you know um
1:26:31
like i'm here and i know all even in the spring and in the fall and i have i'm on a different
1:26:37
aspect of a mountain that i've never burned on here before just doing a little um control burns and just burning
1:26:43
up like debris and branches and fall and stuff from the winter you know storm damage stuff so but i have studied that
1:26:50
weather and because of fred and because of you and learned how important so but the wind here and i noticed in this
1:26:57
county and i noticed in other counties also the wind
1:27:02
talking when you're talking prevailing winds or surface winds primarily
1:27:07
the guy or the locals are like the fire chief sitting on the porch and the wind went through his wind chimes
1:27:14
he knows that that prevailing weather is this is normal them chimes do that every
1:27:21
day at the whatever end this is our prevailing winds and that's standard wind behavior for our area okay so
1:27:29
within so we know that so but looking at that you'll notice you go out there and kick some dust or light a fight whatever
1:27:35
with safe area and or whatever and not this time of year god forbid i'm not telling people
1:27:40
go out and spend an experiment with fire right now so but you can in a safe time of year you'll notice the prevailing
1:27:47
wind is like i said maybe 50 or 75 of the time it's going
1:27:55
south to north but it changes and it'll swirl and you'll see little even fire natives form or smoke native
1:28:02
you know whatever in your little fire and if you're observing if you're not observing you won't see none of this enjoy
1:28:08
bread for sure i'll call you a snowflake or something so but anyway that these things are and i found that
1:28:13
these truth they're right there and i just what i've been doing and especially since i met fred and joy and i have a
1:28:19
place to do it a ranch and i'm responsible for an area and i keep it very clean i do
1:28:25
good work for my uh landlord and uh it's a caretaker thing so i'm very proud
1:28:31
of my work but i like i love the land and i do i enjoy burning and save time in a safe area that is made
1:28:39
to be safe and so um but yeah you can observe these things and so then you can imagine larger scale
1:28:47
and then predictability and then they're using uh now um what for a uh
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